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“Vein” approach to dating Rising Sun Orders: a DaNgErOuS pAtH

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But let’s turn our attention to 1st classes. That will be really something!

Testing the rule for 1st class orders

Same old gallery routine.

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Summing-up

The only part of this “vein” rule that is actually works could be formulated like that.

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But it will be wrong to conclude that every piece from Meiji epoch should have such vein! ;)

That’s all for today!

Cheers,

Nick

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I have the following observations : -

- I have always made it clear that I only ever apply this to the 7th and 8th classes so the "analysis" of the higher classes is superfluous since it does not work as a dating tool, nor has anyone ever suggested that it does;

- It is useful to place medals into a general timeline, ie Meiji, Taisho or Showa. It is not something that you can use to place them into 10 year time slots !

- You set photos beside each other that are clearly not perfectly aligned nor taken from the same distance. Hence drawing a straight line across them to show where the vein cuts that line is not accurate.

- You do not set out the basis on which you date the examples that you have used to illustrate your opinion. How are you certain that the medals fall into the dates that you allocate for them ?

I look forward to the day when someone can positively date the different dies used to make the various Japanese orders but any approach to doing this needs to either be a very general one, which is the method I have adopted in the absence of hard facts to support a different approach, or else it should be a scholarly one along the lines used by numismatists to properly attribute ancient coins etc to different time periods/mints.

What you are suggesting lacks rigor since you are making sweeping statements about the dates of the pieces being used without providing the proof that supports your theory. Please set out the reasons for your comfort with the dates and then we will have the material for an excellent debate on this subject.

Regards,

Paul

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I have the following observations : -

- I have always made it clear that I only ever apply this to the 7th and 8th classes so the "analysis" of the higher classes is superfluous since it does not work as a dating tool, nor has anyone ever suggested that it does;

Dear Paul please tell me where in the text of this thread I said that you applied this rule to the higher classes?

- It is useful to place medals into a general timeline, ie Meiji, Taisho or Showa. It is not something that you can use to place them into 10 year time slots !

You sure know a lot about me and my abilities ;)

- You set photos beside each other that are clearly not perfectly aligned nor taken from the same distance. Hence drawing a straight line across them to show where the vein cuts that line is not accurate.

Are you kidding me?! Do you really need a ruler for cases like 8.1 vs. 8.2 (hope you agree that these two pieces from Meiji?) or 7.2 vs 7.3 (hope you agree that these two pieces from Meiji either?).

- You do not set out the basis on which you date the examples that you have used to illustrate your opinion. How are you certain that the medals fall into the dates that you allocate for them ?

On the basis of my experience.

I look forward to the day when someone can positively date the different dies used to make the various Japanese orders... .

Good luck with that!

...to doing this needs to either be a very general one, which is the method I have adopted in the absence of hard facts to support a different approach, or else it should be a scholarly one along the lines used by numismatists to properly attribute ancient coins etc to different time periods/mints.

Sorry, but this approach is wrong, as my little study clearly demonstrates.

What you are suggesting lacks rigor since you are making sweeping statements about the dates of the pieces being used without providing the proof that supports your theory.

Very gentlemanly remark Paul!

Please set out the reasons for your comfort with the dates and then we will have the material for an excellent debate on this subject.

Well Paul, usually you don't answer to my questions, so please tell me why should I answer yours? ;)

Because of imperious tone? :lol:

I don't think so Paul.

Not to mention all your experience of dealing with 7th and 8th classes (hundreds and hundreds...)

With such vast experience you certanly don't need my humble opinion.

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Lately Paul was really concerned with my “sweeping statements”, “theories without proof”, “preconceived views”, “twisting” and “ignoring” (this is not the full list, but I think you get the general idea :lol:). So I am thinking it will be a good thing to demonstrate how “sweeping statement” looks like.

What is interesting is that the later post war pieces again have a longer vein but they have no enamel on the reverse of the 7th class and have a different "feel" to the depth of the overall stamping.

Here is two pieces with different enamel shades and reverse execution.

Both have no enamel on reverse.

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Well isn’t nice?!

I will take a liberty to remind Paul that

“making sweeping statements without any hard evidence will not help anyone gain a better understanding of the subject, nor indeed will it do anything to enhance your own credibility”.

You certainly got it right this time Paul!!!

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I hope that Paul will provide photos of this after-war-no-enamel-on-reverse piece (at least!) and some evidence about dating of this piece (that will be really nice).

Edited by JapanX

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And I practically forgot about this sweeping statement

Actually the easiest way to date a 7th or 8th class Rising Sun is by using the length of the 3rd curling vein in the leaf counting out from the bottom. I have observed a few hundred pieces over the years, including a good few examples in groups or with documents where I am comfortable that they were an original pairing, and the basic rule is that the longer the vein, the older the striking.

Dear colleagues please take a close look at this specimen.

Not in the mood for another 8th class? ;)

Well you really should, cause they don’t make them like that anymore (for 110+ years at least ;)).

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Posted (edited) · Hidden by JapanX, April 7, 2012 - No reason given
Hidden by JapanX, April 7, 2012 - No reason given

Reverse

Edited by JapanX

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I know man and I am very sorry for that, there was some kind glitch (was trying for 15 minutes to sort it out)

I will post reverse tomorrow from another computer.

Cheers,

Nick

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If I may add a few of my own observations, I don't know that these can be absolute. These two examples are fair extremes - an early, no doubt (prob. mid-late Meiji, maybe early Taisho) and a Post-War, no doubt, 7th class. For those with lots of examples, please look at these notes and compare - can any of these points be used reliably?

1a) Notice - the veins have greater separation

2a) Notice - the veins are more pinched

2a) That's a long vein!

2b) That's a much shorter vein!

3a) A shallower indentation, and look where that vein tip is - not in the indentation

3b) A slightly larger indentation, vein tip is right in it!

(Indentation is probably not a good word, but...)

4a) Look how close these vein tips are and where they are relative to the medal's edge

4b) Greater separation of the vein tips and different position relative to medal's edge

5a) Less rounded suspension ball

5b) More distinct rounding to ball

Really, I'm not sure if this is a useful feature or not, the ball thing.

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2a) Short horizontal bar

3a) Distinctly longer horizontal bar

2b) Taller character relative to its neighbor to the right

3b) Distinctly shorter!!

2c) Low angle on this "bar"

3c) Much greater angle

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2012/post-6375-0-13386300-1326313406.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2012/post-6375-0-02360200-1326313420.jpg

I think at least late Taisho and Showa era medals share these same "Post-War" features, or at least close. I have not applied any of this to 8th class at all. Very interested in comments!

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