christerd Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Recently I bought this from a well know forum member who was a fantastic homepage for selling Imperial stuff ( maybe I get a discount next time if make some advertising ) Well well , over to the bar itself .... A quite typical mid thirties ribbon bar with EK - Lübeck Cross - Bremen Cross - Hamburg Cross - Honor Cross This is my first eibbon bar with all three States and I belive its quite unusual . I started looking through the few lists I have and on the net and found so far only 7 with this combo, and yes one is von Ritchofen and No this isn´t his bar So far I got 1 Candidate who didn´t get anything more eccept a EK 1 but I suppose I have to wait for the Lúbeck-Bremen-Hamburg rolls to find this three city Soldier Does anyone have any names on officers awarded with all three Hansa ? So I can add to my short list .... Have a nice sunday all ! Christer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Christer, Very nice ribbon bar you have bought, congrats You are right about one point, it is not usual to find ribbon bar with three hanseatic ribbons. I will look through the Reichswehr Ranglisten to see if I have a candidate Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hunter Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Christer, This is a great find! Given my collection interest I am of course sorry to have missed this one but I am sure it has went to a good home. I have yet to come across a ribbon bar with all three Hansa Crosses present. It is great to see this example. Thanks for sharing. Best wishes Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 One for your list: Dr. German Bülle, born 18 January 1896, received all three as a Leutnant in Pi.-Btl. 9, along with the EK1 and the Wound Badge in Black. He received the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer on 20 February 1935. This would match your ribbon bar, but only for another 18 months. He received the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnungen 4. bis 2. Klasse on 2 October 1936. He added the KVK2X on 1 September 1942 as Leiter der Militär-Geographischen-Gruppe Saloniki-Ägäis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 One for your list: Dr. German Bülle, born 18 January 1896, received all three as a Leutnant in Pi.-Btl. 9, along with the EK1 and the Wound Badge in Black. He received the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer on 20 February 1935. This would match your ribbon bar, but only for another 18 months. He received the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnungen 4. bis 2. Klasse on 2 October 1936. He added the KVK2X on 1 September 1942 as Leiter der Militär-Geographischen-Gruppe Saloniki-Ägäis. Wow , what a interesting unit Militär-Geographischen-Gruppe Saloniki-Ägäis . He sure is a candidate I must see if I can find anything about Pi Btl 9. Thanks Dave and Matt I will have you in first line if I´m going to sell it ! Christer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 How does a person qualify for all three? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Recently I bought this from a well know forum member who was a fantastic homepage for selling Imperial stuff ( maybe I get a discount next time if make some advertising ) Thanks... maybe. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hunter Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks Dave and Matt I will have you in first line if I´m going to sell it ! Christer Thanking you in advance! :cheeky: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 nice. I haven't encountered a ribbon bar so small, with all three Hansa awards! I would have to imagine that the medal bar would be a real gem as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How does someone become eligible for all three? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How does someone become eligible for all three? Outside of the major figures like some royals and generals and big name war heroes, basically have some connection to all three city states. German Bülle, for example, served in Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 9 and on the staff of the 17. Reserve-Division. PB 9 was the engineer unit for the IX Corps, which covered all three city states, and Bülle went into the field with its 4th Field Company as the engineer unit of the 17.RD. The 17.RD included regiments from Schleswig-Holstein and all three city states - IR 162 (Lübeck), IR 163 (Schleswig-Holstein), RIR 76 (Hamburg), and until October 1916 RIR 75 (Bremen). So with his engineer unit and in staff duties, he supported regiments from all three city states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thanks Dave! So such recipients were "famous", one way or another. Really cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odulf Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Does anyone have any names on officers awarded with all three Hansa ? So I can add to my short list .... Christer What makes you think that this ribbon bar was worn by an (Army) officer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 What makes you think that this ribbon bar was worn by an (Army) officer? It could be navy either, right. The lack of any long service award makes me think officer, also it's very unlikely (still not impossible) for an EM to get bravery/war merit awards from four different states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odulf Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 An interesting topic. As far as I know the Hanseatic Crosses were instituted 14-09-1915 and issued until 23-11-1923, thus these may also have been presented post november 1918, for merit (Für Verdienst im Kriege) during the war. What is the official order of wear (alphabetically or in order of issue)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 There was no official order of wear. I think order of issue would be more likely than not, especially for co-equals like the three city states. For other combinations of state awards, sometimes alphabetically, sometimes order of issue, and sometimes by rank (kingdoms first, then grand duchies, duchies, principalities, and city states). Sometimes just personal (for example home state first) or aesthetic preference (for example crosses before medals). Prussian regulations had Prussian decorations first, but other states were by personal preference. There were no Weimar regulations. Wehrmacht regulations during World War II placed certain high decorations first, and then other state awards usually in order of issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redeagleorder Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 About the order of wear... From my limited experience I have seen that the majority of hansa cross medal bars have the hansa crosses mounted with hamburg, bremen and lubeck crosses in that order, as if they were mounted in order of rarity. Just my opinion Regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odulf Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I have an order of wearing Prussian ODM according to Kabinetts-Ordre of 4 December 1871 and adapted to 1900. To be worn on the left breast in the next order and from left to right: " 1. Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse (1870) 2. Ritterkreuz des Königl. Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern, bzw. am weiβen Bande 3. Roter Adlerorden III. oder IV. Klasse mit Schwertern, bzw. am weiβen Bande 4. Kronenorden III. oder IV. Klasse mit Schwertern, bzw. am weiβen Bande 5. Militärverdienstkreuz 6. Militärehrenzeichen I. Klasse 7. Militärehrenzeichen II. Klasse 8. Rettungsmedaille 9. Ritterkreuz des Königl. Hausordens von Hohenzollern ohne Schwertern, bzw. am statutmäβigen Bande 10. Roter Adlerorden III. oder IV. Klasse ohne Schwertern, bzw. am statutmäβigen Bande 11. Kronenorden III. oder IV. Klasse ohne Schwertern, bzw. am statutmäβigen Bande 12. Ehrenzeichen in Gold (1890) - In 1900 umgetauscht gegen das Kreuz des Allgemeinen Ehrenzeichens (1900) 13. Das Allgemeine Ehrenzeichen 14. Das 25jährige Dienstauszeichnungskreuz der Offiziere 15. Das Fürstlich Hohenzollernsche Ehrenkreuz II. und III. Klasse mit und ohne Schwerter 16. Düppelkreuz 17. Alfenkreuz 18. Kriegsdenkmünze für 1813/15 19. Erinnerungsmedaille von 1863 20. Kriegsdenkmünze von 1870/71 21. Erinnerungskreuz für 1866 22. Kriegsdenkmünze für 1864 23. Hohenzollernsche Denkmünze 24. Krönungsmedaille Persons who yet are rightfully wearing the Iron Cross of 1813/15, should wear the military commemorative medals from that period, and the commemorative Medal of 1863, immediately folowing the Iron Cross 1870. " Unfortunately, my next Regulation about the order of wear dates from 1943, thus I have a wide gap of about 43 years, which is covering (in particular) the period from 1918 to c. 1935 and thus the order of wear during the interbellum. Also, the above list does not mention the wear of non-Prussian ODM by Prussians. I realise that we are drifting from topic, and I thank Dave and Matthew for their replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 From my limited experience I have seen that the majority of hansa cross medal bars have the hansa crosses mounted with hamburg, bremen and lubeck crosses in that order, as if they were mounted in order of rarity. Just my opinion This precendece is also the size of the cities, which makes sense. If we take a look at Kaiser Wilhelm II.'s medal bar, he wore them the same. But other precendeces are known and usually hard to explain. Sometimes possibly without any reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Odulf, regarding your gap: there were no regulations in the Weimar Republic, so "anything goes" was the rule, especially for civilians. Active Reichswehr members mainly followed the rules of their former army, so Prussians (and other citizens of most other states within the Prussian Army) followed Prussian rules, Bavarians followed Bavarian rules, and Saxons followed Saxon rules. But even here, there were lots of variations. For example: 1. Paul Platz, a Badener, has mixed Baden/Prussian precedence, then non-Prussian awards. 2. Friedemann Goetze, a Prussian, places his non-Prussian war decorations before his Prussian peacetime awards. 3. Bernhard Rust, a Bavarian, has his Bavarian MVO before the EK2, following Bavarian precedence, but his Saxon Albert Order with Swords ahead of the Bavarian Jubilee, which was not the Bavarian regulation (the Jubilee/PRLM came after the EK2 but before non-Bavarian awards). 4. Heinrich von Kummer, a Prussian, follows standard Prussian precedence. His Hamburg Hanseatic Cross comes before his Lübeck Hanseatic Cross, but I have no idea whether this is based on size, award date, or alphabetical order. The peacetime Order of the Griffin comes last. 5. Friedrich Salzenberg, a Prussian, follows standard Prussian precedence, but for his non-Prussian awards, the order is odd: BMV3X, WK3X, SA3aXKr, SA3aKr, BremH. This places a peacetime Saxon award before a wartime Bremen award. 6. Max Fiedler, a Saxon, follows Saxon precedence: Saxon war decorations, then EK2, then other Saxon (his Saxon DA), then non-Saxon (his RAO4). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odulf Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Thanks Matthew and Dave, most enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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