Saxony Swordless in Seattle - A curious case of a SEHO3 on a combatant's bar.

[Triadoro]

The bar is 100% original and untouched, but it is puzzling to me that there are no swords on this brave soldiers SEHO3b especially in light of the Hesse "Tapferkeit" medal that is present.

Comments?

Edited January 16, 2012 by garfordhouse

[Triadoro]

And a picture of the back...

[Claudius]

Hello Garfordhouse;

Can you show us the back? Also, could you also flip the medals up to reveal the ribbon area below the awards.

And how are the medals attached? I know you said it was untouched, but.....

[Wild Card]

A pre war award?

[saschaw]

A pre war award?

Most likely, I agree.

One might have put it behind the Hassian medal, but hey, it's still a pretty enemal order. ;)

[Claudio]

Hi guys!

I don't like the Hessen ribbon... it looks like that ribbon has seen some manipulations, see at the height of the medal and the fact that the re-positioning of this medal has left some traces. Is it on Ebay? I think to have it seen before... A picture of the back would help to give more appropriate comments.

More than swordless, I would be sleepless thinking to have such bar in my collection... I don't like it too much... but it's my gut feeling only.

ciao,

Claudio

Edited January 17, 2012 by Claudio

[Triadoro]

I will try to get more pictures from the seller and post them. He did mention that the medals were suspended from black metal spring-hooks.

[Claudius]

.....medals were suspended from black metal spring-hooks.

:Cat-Scratch:

[Triadoro]

Received a picture of the back. He plans to eventually list it and some other medals on Ebay. Will ask for further pictures.

[Claudius]

That's some sloppy stitching back there. The medals in the front have worn in their creases and begun fraying the ribbons but the felt on the back in in MINT condition.

Even if this is a period bar, I still think that w/o sword SEHO3 was swapped in where a SEHO3X was.

If it was a pre-war award, even if the owner decided to put it in front of other combatant awards, I would expect other pre-war service awards and maybe a long service medal.

If you go for it and win. I would hit it with a black light on all the threads.

What do others feel about it?

[saschaw]

I'm not sure, of course, if this is a mid-1930s bar. But I do't see that many red flags.

I would expect other pre-war service awards and maybe a long service medal.

I would neither. Young pre-war officer, Leutnant or Oberleuitnant in 1914, who yet got the EH3b, got an EK2, posibly EK1, and the HT in WW1... sounds fine!

Precedence on the other hand isn't that much of an issue, from my experience.

[Claudius]

I'm not sure, of course, if this is a mid-1930s bar. But I do't see that many red flags.

I would neither. Young pre-war officer, Leutnant or Oberleuitnant in 1914, who yet got the EH3b, got an EK2, posibly EK1, and the HT in WW1... sounds fine!

Precedence on the other hand isn't that much of an issue, from my experience.

A remarkable tribute for a young Leutnant or Oberleutnant to get a SEHO3. I would ask what he did to earn that award at such a young age, and why we don't see more examples of this on other medal bars.

[Triadoro]

I would ask what he did to earn that award at such a young age, and why we don't see more examples of this on other medal bars.

It is likely that he might have received it because of who his family was and/or who he knew ... not what he did.

There are two K.u.K awards that were notorious for being given to the "Who they knew" group... the nobility, the gentry, i.e. the people from the right families. These were the Order of the Iron Crown and the Order of Franz Josef. (The Iron Crown Order could only be given to persons of noble ancestry.)

To those who have knowledge about the Saxon house orders I ask: Is it possible that the SEHO might have been awarded in this way on some occasions?

Edited January 17, 2012 by garfordhouse

[Claudius]

It is likely that he might have received it because of who his family was and/or who he knew ... not what he did.

There are two K.u.K awards that were notorious for being given to the "Who they knew" group... the nobility, the gentry, i.e. the people from the right families. These were the Order of the Iron Crown and the Order of Franz Josef. (The Iron Crown Order could only be given to persons of noble ancestry.)

To those who have knowledge about the Saxon house orders I ask: Is it possible that the SEHO might have been awarded in this way on some occasions?

Hmmmmm....a good suggestion. But also problematic in at least two aspects. 1) If this is a noble born or well connected to nobility, then the quality of the medal bar is lacking (Claudio can speak well of medalbar quality between jewelers) 2) and more importantly, if he is nobility, or well connected before the war to get the SEHO3, and then during the war he serves faithfully to earn the EK2 and even a Hessian award. His own Sächsische Herzogtümer State gives him.....nothing?

If this is a period bar, I think we need to apply Occum's Razor and simply suggest that the combatant award was carefully removed and this SEHO3 was swapped in.

[Dave Danner]

Here is a perfectly normal bar with a peacetime SEHO and no wartime award from a Saxon duchy. In this case, the recipient was a Stabsarzt.

He entered active duty in 1898, so no Centenary, and apparently did not reach 25 years before leaving the service, so no DA.

So it is quite possible, if not common. You would be looking for an active officer, since a reserve or Landwehr officer would likely have the LD2. He would have gotten the SEHO before the war, possibly while serving in a regiment with a Saxon connection, and been in a Hesse regiment during the war. Another possibility is a recalled regular officer, who entered service after 1897, got the SEHO around the ten year mark, and then retired and moved to somewhere like Darmstadt or Giessen.

That said, I think it is just as likely that someone removed a wartime SEHO with swords, as Claudius suggests.

[Triadoro]

Can you show us the back? Also, could you also flip the medals up to reveal the ribbon area below the awards. And how are the medals attached?

I don't like the Hessen ribbon... it looks like that ribbon has seen some manipulations, see at the height of the medal and the fact that the re-positioning of this medal has left some traces. Is it on Ebay? A picture of the back would help to give more appropriate comments.

I'm not sure, of course, if this is a mid-1930s bar. But I do't see that many red flags. Precedence on the other hand isn't that much of an issue, from my experience.

So it is quite possible, if not common. That said, I think it is just as likely that someone removed a wartime SEHO with swords, as Claudius suggests.

I now have the medal bar in my hands. I was able to examine it and photograph it. It is my opinion that there is no evidence to suggest that this bar has been manipulated.

The stitching, the thread, the backing look good. The SEHO is sewn into place. The others are hung on hooks behind the ribbons.

I could not pass-up buying it. I got it for much less than the SEHO3b alone is worth!

[Triadoro]

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