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1st class sacred treasure: screws on brest star - rivets on badge

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Well, here something interesting.

Sacred tresure set from 80s (late 70? early 90?)

Modern style breast star pin and screws,but old style rivets on badge.

No marks in sight ;)

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And here is nice set from 1985 (it looks authentic to me) from Dieter.

Breast star has the same pin, but rivets on reverse.

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Well, hope you like this new type of pin ;)

And I think we definitely have some concurrent existense of riverts/screws types in highers classes of sacred treasures

and no-riverts/screws/rivets(???) in lower classes of sacred treasures during 1960s(?)-2003(?).

The source of this concurrent existence - different manufacturers or different technological process.

Of course there is a probability that both these 1st class sets were artificially created.

The probability of such event from my point of view is pretty low (close to zero more likely).

Cheers,

Nick

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AHHHH!!! The puzzle grows!!

Agree - there must be concurrent existence of these multiple construction types - but why?

I agree - not likely that these are mixed pieces.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong - I thought when re-issuance began that all orders were made at the Japan Mint, no?

If I'm mistaken - then yes, the differences could be explained by different manufacturers, but if I'm not mistaken then here is my theory:

Pieces may have been left over from the war-era - stored somewhere - and why waste them? Why not continue issuing them? It might be a bit on the outside to assume that there would be many high class orders like 1st and 2nd (especially 1st!!) just sitting around - but I could see 3rd class and lower.

Thoughts???

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Pieces may have been left over from the war-era - stored somewhere - and why waste them? Why not continue issuing them? It might be a bit on the outside to assume that there would be many high class orders like 1st and 2nd (especially 1st!!) just sitting around - but I could see 3rd class and lower.

Thoughts???

Sorry mate, bit I think this scenario simply will not do it - just think about enamel shades, patina, central mirrors contours ...

Nope. I think this strange concurrent existence may be a product of

a) some experimentation phase that Japan mint was going through

b) Japan mint had (and has) different branches (sections?) that used different approaches for fastening jewels

I vote for scenario b)

Regards,

Nick

Edited by JapanX

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Sorry mate, bit I think this scenario simply will no do it - just think about enamel shades, patina, central mirrors contours ...

Nope.

Well, I don't know - have modern pieces really changed shape or enameling that much from war-era pieces? I mean we're not talking left overs from the Meiji period!! ;) I don't that the changes would be significant, if at all!!?? It is unlikely - but is it beyond the realm of remote possibility? Patina can be cleaned up!

I think this strange concurrent existence may be a product of

a) some experimentation phase that Japan mint was going through

Hmmm. But for what reason? To see what methods worked better/faster/cheaper?

b) Japan mint had (and has) different branches (sections?) that used different approaches for fastening jewels

I vote for scenario b)

Regards,

Nick

Are we sure of this? I would think that branches would adopt identical construction techniques, especially post-war construction. It wouldn't surprise me if different branches used different methods and techniques, but why would they? Doesn't it make more sense to be uniform in the approach? When medals started to be re-issued, were they indeed made by multiple branches? I suppose they could have been tooled differently, but I'd expect a modernization of equipment by then to indeed be more uniform, unless they were running older equipment that simply didn't need upgrading?

Edited by Dieter3

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Well, here something interesting.

Sacred tresure set from 80s (late 70? early 90?)

Modern style breast star pin and screws,but old style rivets on badge.

No marks in sight ;)

Yes, I forgot to comment on this earlier - no marks in sight!

So - we know that at least 4th-6th class Sacred Treasures with screws have the two-character code on the suspension. I do not know about 3rd class awards - can anybody confirm that they have these characters as well? I'm guessing they do, but would prefer confirmation. :)

Maybe they simply don't mark the higher class awards for some reason, but it seems inconsistent to mark some and not others, no? Unless these are left-overs from the war-era, are you convinced yet? :P;):lol: :rolleyes:

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Well, I don't know - have modern pieces really changed shape or enameling that much from war-era pieces? I mean we're not talking left overs from the Meiji period!! ;) I don't that the changes would be significant, if at all!!?? It is unlikely - but is it beyond the realm of remote possibility? Patina can be cleaned up!

I really think it is beyond the realm of remote possibility... Such perfect matching is simply impossible to achieve by mixing.

Not to mention patina... Certainly you can clean it, but I just couldn't imagine Mint people in the process of doing it :lol:

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Hmmm. But for what reason? To see what methods worked better/faster/cheaper?

I think they had huge problem with glue-no-rivets type, because these pieces sometimes literary were falling apart.

So they try to go back to rivets and later on decide to use more safe type of hardware - two screws.

Are we sure of this? I would think that branches would adopt identical construction techniques, especially post-war construction. It wouldn't surprise me if different branches used different methods and techniques, but why would they? Doesn't it make more sense to be uniform in the approach? When medals started to be re-issued, were they indeed made by multiple branches? I suppose they could have been tooled differently, but I'd expect a modernization of equipment by then to indeed be more uniform, unless they were running older equipment that simply didn't need upgrading?

We really don't know much about war and post-war organizational structure of Japan Mint.

Edited by JapanX

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Yes, I forgot to comment on this earlier - no marks in sight!

So - we know that at least 4th-6th class Sacred Treasures with screws have the two-character code on the suspension. I do not know about 3rd class awards - can anybody confirm that they have these characters as well? I'm guessing they do, but would prefer confirmation. :)

Maybe they simply don't mark the higher class awards for some reason, but it seems inconsistent to mark some and not others, no? Unless these are left-overs from the war-era, are you convinced yet? :P;):lol::rolleyes:

"No marks in sight".

The key word "in sight" ;)

The badge is definitely not marked, but the star easily could being marked under upper fastening of the pin (I mean the breast star with screws).

Mint (and private workshops) marked higher classes as often as lower classes. I just couldn't understand why they didn't mark all orders, but only some of them.

In case of two digit codes it will be fare to say that

1) they could be found only on two-screw pieces (and two time-concurring lower classes)

2) mint marked (and continue to mark) all these late two-screw pieces without any exceptions (at least all pieces that I saw or my friends and fellow collectors saw - they all bear this two-digit codes)

Cheers,

Nick

P.S. This "long-ago-made-pieces-from-war/pre-war-Mint-secret-storeroom" hypothesis is really dear to your heart mate :lol:

Edited by JapanX

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P.S. This "long-ago-made-pieces-from-war/pre-war-Mint-secret-storeroom" hypothesis is really dear to your heart mate :lol:

Na, I just like crack-pot theories!! ;):lol: But seriously, you figure there must have been pieces that survived the war and such, NIB. I wouldn't think they'd want to waste them. I guess they could be scraped and recycled - but if they were perfectly good, why not issue them? I mean after all, they would have been new, just old stock. I don't lend much support for the theory actually, it was something to simply throw out there for people to chew on. YUM!! :)

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Na, I just like crack-pot theories!! ;):lol: But seriously, you figure there must have been pieces that survived the war and such, NIB. I wouldn't think they'd want to waste them. I guess they could be scraped and recycled - but if they were perfectly good, why not issue them? I mean after all, they would have been new, just old stock. :)

First of all don`t forget that they completely abolished this "old vicious awarding system" in 1946.

A brave new world ...

Scraped and recycled is one opportunity and another is garage sale ... :)

I don't lend much support for the theory actually, it was something to simply throw out there for people to chew on. YUM!! :)

Let`s hope that their will be no cases of overfeeding :lol:

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Check this out!

2nd class.

Breast star with trident pin.

It has the rivets ;)

Box

.

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... and now a detailed study of 2nd class with trident pin and screws on reverse.

Box

Script

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