Maximilian Gritzner on Persians Orders

[JapanX]

In this thread old source on Persian orders will be re-introduced.

I am talking about Handbuch der Ritter- und Verdienst-Orden by Maximilian Gritzner that was published in Leipzig back in 1893. Although a little dated, it is still interesting (and still referenced to) and contains some nice engravings of Persians orders.

Here it is.

Edited February 11, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Title

[JapanX]

p.327

[JapanX]

p.328

[JapanX]

p.329

[JapanX]

p.330

[JapanX]

p.331

[JapanX]

p.332

[JapanX]

p.333

[JapanX]

p.334

[JapanX]

Please note this interesting phrase (p. 334) related to the ribbon color of Art&Science order.

[JapanX]

Another interesting thing – Mr. Mulder in his interesting book devoted to the Quajar Dynasty Orders (Mulder, C. P. (1990) PERSIAN ORDERS 1808-1925: The Orders of the Quajar Dynasty (Persiske Ordner 1808-1925), Ordenshistorisk Selskab: Copenhagen – Denmark) was skeptical about whole section of Gritzner article devoted to this order. In particular he wrote (p.17)

“Gritzner also mentions an order for arts and sciences in four classes, but as one (fig. 400) has the military type of Lion and Sun and others (no. 401-402) are exactly like grades of the Lion and Sun, it is doubtful whether this was a separate order”.

Today we know that Gritzner was right about this “separate order”.

Cheers,

Nick

[Markus]

Wow, I love these early line drawings of the Lion and Sun orders. In post #7 there is mention of different colored ribbons as well. With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon. A fantastic resource that will take further scrutiny and translation! Thanks Nick! You found confirmation as to your theory that a green ribbon existed for the Order of Arts and Science! Some of those green ribbons did look quite old on Arts & Science order.

:jumping:

[JapanX]

Wow, I love these early line drawings of the Lion and Sun orders. In post #7 there is mention of different colored ribbons as well. With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon. A fantastic resource that will take further scrutiny and translation! Thanks Nick! You found confirmation as to your theory that a green ribbon existed for the Order of Arts and Science! Some of those green ribbons did look quite old on Arts & Science order.

Happy you like it mate!

I think "die übrigen Perser" (this "fraktur" could be tricky ) stands for "other Persians".

Cheers,

Nick

[James Hoard]

Wow, I love these early line drawings of the Lion and Sun orders. In post #7 there is mention of different colored ribbons as well. With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon. A fantastic resource that will take further scrutiny and translation! Thanks Nick! You found confirmation as to your theory that a green ribbon existed for the Order of Arts and Science! Some of those green ribbons did look quite old on Arts & Science order.

Of course, it does not mean he is right as that is exactly where our dealers may got it from.

As for the ribbons of the Lion and Sun, the information is incorrect. The blue ribbon was for the sovereign alone. The other colours depended on the rank or occupation of the recipient, not the grade of award. So if he is wrong on the L&S, why should he be necessarily right on the Arts & Sciences?

Cheers,

James

[speedytop]

Hi James,

"So if he is wrong on the L&S, ..."

Why is Gritzner wrong on the L&S?

We can find the same description in Gritzner (1893) and Mericka (1969):

Blue for the court, green for foreigners and red or white for (other) Persian citizens.

He don't write anything about the grade of the award in combination with the different colours.

Uwe

[JapanX]

Hi Uwe

I think one of the possible reasons why the description is the same could be because Mericka ("Orders and Decorations", London: Paul Hamlyn, 1969) borrowed it from Gritzner (please correct me if I am wrong).

James firmly believe in Shahs firman that was issued in 1872 (James translation from French could be found here http://web.archive.org/web/20050304091119/http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/lionsun4.htm)

Everything that is not in accordance with this firman is "replacement" made by dilettante dealers for such unintelligent persons like me.

The problem is that we don't have firman color discription for Arts&Science order ribbon (at least I don't have this description )

Another problem - all L&S orders that we see nowadays have green ribbons (including standing lion versions). And if they all "replacements", then why dilettante dealers (as we know - they read Gritzner ) replace all blue, red and white ribbons. And then again - many of these green ribbons are looking good (at least they are old enough to be authentic).

Only orders of Arts&Science have red ribbons and some medals (issued before 1925) of this order have red ribbons also.

Well, maybe in some point between 1872 and 1925 another regulation was adopted? Just a thought...

Cheers,

Nick

[James Hoard]

Hi James,

"So if he is wrong on the L&S, ..."

Why is Gritzner wrong on the L&S?

Uwe

Well, what does he actually say?

According to Markus, on 11 February 2012 - 16:54:

"With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon."

Acoording to speedytop, Posted Today, 19:24:

"Blue for the court, green for foreigners and red or white for (other) Persian citizens"

If he says such different things to different people reading him, he must be wrong somewhere along the line!

On the contrary, the 1836 firman says:

The insignia of the order was to be worn from five different coloured ribbons (hamayelat), depending on the rank or official position of the recipient. Blue (abi) for the sovereign alone. Green (sabz)for those of the rank of Lieutenant General, or equivalent. Red (qermes) with green borders (hashi-ye sabz dashte bashad) for Major Generals, or equivalent rank. Red (qermes) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank. White (sefid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.

The 1856 firman:

This decree extended the number of different coloured ribbons from five to eight. 1. Sky or clear blue (abi-e roushan) for sovereign alone. 2. Green (sabz) for those of the rank of Prime Minister or the highest court rank. 3. Cobalt blue (abi-e sir-tar) for recipients of the first class of the rank of Minister Plenipotentiary, or equivalent. 4. Dark blue in the centre with green borders (vasat abi-e sir-tar va astraf sabz) for those of the rank of military commander-in-chief or General commanding an army corps, or equivalent. 5. Red in the centre with green borders (vasat qermez atraf sabz) for Major Generals, or equivalent. 6. Red in the centre with white borders (vasat qermez atraf sefid) for Brigadier-Generals, or equivalent rank. 7. Red (qermez) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank. 8. White (safid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.Elsewhere, I have posted several links to contemporary photographs, illustrations and portraits of Persian dignitaries wearing the different coloured ribbons.

Cheers,

James

[JapanX]

"Blue for the court (Persian court - Persisch Hof), green for foreigners and red or white for (other) Persian citizens"

-----

"If he says such different things to different people reading him, he must be wrong somewhere along the line!"

Another brilliant conclusion. Only "perfectly clear" phrase is missing...

[James Hoard]

My replies to some of the comments made here by another poster.

Comment: “...we don't have firman color discription for Arts&Science order ribbon”.

Reply: true, we have not found seen any firman so far. However, virtually all original A&S examples that we find attached to medal bars, along with or in-between other decorations, appear to be only attached to red ribbons. The green ribbons, generally appear with single A&S decorations, presumably added to those which had long lost their actual ribbon.

Some people, including those who posted here, have relied on mistaken articles they have seen in Western books and catalogues which assumed that the A&S decorations were not a separate decoration, but part of the L&S order. So assumed from that it was correct to attach a green ribbon.

Comment: “... all L&S orders that we see nowadays have green ribbons (including standing lion versions). And if they all "replacements", then why dilettante dealers (as we know - they read Gritzner) replace all blue, red and white ribbons. And then again - many of these green ribbons are looking good (at least they are old enough to be authentic)”.

Reply: All ribbons that we see in WESTERN markets appear with green ribbons. However, the green colour is not consistently the same. Even allowing for fading, the number and variety of shades of green is astounding - teal, moss, Lincoln, pale, dark, to almost blue. Sometimes moiré, sometimes plain silk and sometimes even plain weave. Any type, shade or make of green ribbon seems to do. Why, because the descriptions in Western publications only say “green”. So if the decoration has arrived at a dealer who has not seen the original ribbon, he reaches for his draw, sees that he has some spare green ribbons and attaches it.

I find it hard to believe that a dealer in old medals and decorations does not have old green ribbons.

As for blue ribbons being replaced, there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of that happening because a Western dealer would never see one on a L&S in the first place. The blue ribbon only attached to the very highest class and was awarded to only the highest ranking Persian royalty.

Comment: “... Well, maybe in some point between 1872 and 1925 another regulation was adopted?”

Reply: possibly true, but it is up to those who had no idea that there were any regulations in 1814, 1836, 1856 or 1872 in the first place, and make such a claim now, to provide evidence that there were any other regulations between the dates they claim.

Cheers,

James

[JapanX]

Short reply from "another poster"

"Virtually all.." - not true

"All ribbons that we see in Western market" (not true - there are red ribbon examples in case of Arts&Science order and on the same Western market). What are these others markets I wonder?! Iran?!?!?

And of course different green shades of ribbons could mean only one thing - dealers replacements! No doubt about it. We are not talking about European order here, but about Persian order with long list of different manufacturers.

"You had no idea"/"are you intelligent" - I've heard this already James It's not even funny anymore ...

And of course everything is up to me James Don't worry about that. I made this thread not for you or because of you, but because I thought it's a nice thing to do for couple of my mates in this section of the forum.

Edited February 16, 2012 by JapanX

[speedytop]

Hi James,

Persian awards are not my field of knowledge.

But:

"If he says such different things to different people reading him, he must be wrong somewhere along the line!"

??????

I'm a German, and I'm able to read German.

Gritzner wrote nothing like "With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon."

If someone is not able to read and to understand German, especially the old script, see "Berfer" instead of Perser, and others agree with the wrong interpretation, than I think, that we must find another base for discussions.

For what is it good, to quote with old regulations in 1836 and 1856, when we are writing here about the Gritzner from 1893.

There are new regulations in 1872:

"A major modification of the order in 1872 simplified the variety of classes and degrees down to a manageable, five. The differences between awards to foreigners and Persians ceased, though the military and civil divisions and the different coloured ribbons remained."

Gritzner wrote in 1893, that the "Löwen- und Sonnenorden" had the same rank system as the French Légion d’honneur (hinsichtlich der Klassen rangierend genau mit denen des französischen Ordens der Ehrenlegion).

Therefore it is not the lowest class for a colonel as before, see the regulations from 1836 and 1856!

In the here linked sources I cannot find anything, that is against the assignments from Gritzner and Mericka.

But I can find a comment about the 1856 firman: "The 1856 firman is extremely confusing in that it tries to deal with the extension and modification of the Order of the Lion and Sun, at the same time as instituting the Decoration of the Royal Portrait. The paragraphs dealing with different matters are often badly set out and intermingled. Even the terminology is frequently haphazard."

Uwe

[James Hoard]

Gritzner wrote in 1893, that the "Löwen- und Sonnenorden" had the same rank system as the French Légion d’honneur (hinsichtlich der Klassen rangierend genau mit denen des französischen Ordens der Ehrenlegion).

Uwe

Well, in that at least three instances regarding this comment, Gritzner is utterly, completely and totally wrong.

1 - The five class system with a single ribbon colour operated for foreigners only. Persians continued to have different coloured ribbons right until the order became obsolete, as -

a) the statutes indicate,

and

b) the photographic evidence, illustrations and coloured portraits dating from the early 20th century suggest.

2- The LOH had Grand Crosses, officers, crosses and a whole system of crosses. Persia was a Muslim country, where the idea of crosses was anathema. It did not have the French system at all, it had first class, second class, third class, etc.

3- The L&S order also had medals for the likes of people below the officer class, e.g. non-commissioned officers, Royal household servants, clerical workers and people of similar ranks. The LOH did not have medals attached to it.

Cheers,

James

[JapanX]

... Gritzner is utterly, completely and totally wrong.

As expected

When Gritzner wrote about this analogy (lion and sun - legion) what he meant was the general idea behind the system and not that these orders were exact equivalents of each other. Crosses ... Classes... That's a good one!

And of course Gritzner knew about medals. He mentioned four different types of medals in his text. One should really try to read it.

As for "statutes indicate" - statute of 1872 and Gritzner wrote his book in 1893.

As for "the phonographic evidence..." - indeed they are out there. In black and white. With unidentifiable lions (standing/lion).

As for colored pictures - here is a nice example that was recommended to me ones http://www.parstimes.com/images/amir_kabir_stamp.gif.

I wonder in what statute we could find the description of this ribbon color...

But no doubt photographs with multicolored ribbons are out there.

[James Hoard]

I shall try to (once again) address some of the issues raised by another poster, but without resorting to the trademark emotional histrionics.

"When Gritzner wrote about this analogy (lion and sun - legion) what he meant was the general idea behind the system and not that these orders were exact equivalents of each other. Crosses ... Classes... That's a good one!

The L&S served a very different set of requirements in Persia from those of the LOH for France. Consequently the divisions (non-existent in the LOH), different ribbon colours (non-existent in the LOH), and medals (non-existent in the LOH) were used to meet these requirements. All unnecessary in the case of France and not to be found in the LOH.

The Persian military system had, for example, very many more officer ranks above that of colonel (sarhang), which awards of the L&S had to meet – brigadier (sartip), brigadier-general (mir panj), major-general (amir tuman), lieutenant-general (amir lashkar), general (sardar), field marshal (sardar-i-salar or sipah salar-i-azam), and generalissimo (sardar-i-sardari). France, on the other hand, had just three – général de brigade (major-general), général de division (lieutenant-general) and maréchal (field marshal). The picture in regard to the non-commissioned ranks was similar, and was accommodated by the several grades and shapes of medals available to reward those soldiers.

There were similar requirements on the civil side with particular requirements for awards to clerics and provincial administrators. None of these pressures were required, contemplated or reflected in the structure of the LOH. Hence the need for divisions, grades, different coloured ribbons, etc.

Furthermore, while the GC of the French LOH functioned as the usual award for heads of state, in Persia the first class of L&S was not used for this purpose at all. Instead, it was an entirely different order, the Nishan-i-Aqdas.

“And of course Gritzner knew about medals. He mentioned four different types of medals in his text. One should really try to read it."

Alas, it is at variance with the comment about the structure of the L&S being the same as the LOH. Since the LOH had no medals, the existence of them in the L&S is a serious point of difference between the two orders.

“As for "the phonographic evidence..." - indeed they are out there. In black and white. With unidentifiable lions (standing/lion).

As for colored pictures - here is a nice example that was recommended to me ones http://www.parstimes...abir_stamp.gif.

I wonder in what statute we could find the description of this ribbon color...

But no doubt photographs with multicolored ribbons are out there”

Perhaps I am blessed with superior eyesight, but I am usually able to see that there are different coloured stripes in black and white photographs or, that the arrangement of colours varies between one photograph and the next. I can miraculously tell if a ribbon in a B&W picture is dark or light, if there is one light coloured stripe down the centre of a dark ribbon or two down the sides or, whether the main colour is light with dark coloured stripes on both sides or down the middle.

Quite apart from black and white photographs, I also gave links to hand coloured photographs, coloured contemporary portraits and illustrations.

Cheers,

James