Priest with medals?

[joerookery]

There is no identification of this guy though the cross Looks Catholic. Can he be identified through his decorations?

ps1876 by joerookery, on Flickr

[Chris Boonzaier]

Wow.... thats a religious rack !

[Odulf]

I am not convinced that he is a Catholic priest, can you please give a close-up of the breast cross?

[Naxos]

Great Image!

Here is another priest with bravery decorations:

[joerookery]

ps1876b by joerookery, on Flickr

[azyeoman]

These are amazing photos. I wonder if they joined the priesthood before or after their wartime experiences?

[Odulf]

Priests, students from the seminars and theological students were drawn into the Forces as conscripts during WW1 and WW2. The bulk of these men served as stretcher bearers.

See the death cards below.

[Odulf]

and one more

[ostprussenmann_new]

That is a pretty amazing rack. The guy witht he glasses is also pretty impressive with the EK1.

[Dave Danner]

There is no identification of this guy though the cross Looks Catholic. Can he be identified through his decorations?

ps1876 by joerookery, on Flickr

Friedrich Gottlob Erich Schlegel, 24.2.1866-26.4.1938, Evangelischer Feldpropst der Armee from 1919 to 1934 (and also of the Navy from 1929-34). From 1911 to 1917, he was the Evangelischer Oberpfarrer of the IV.Armeekorps, from 1917 to 1918 Oberpfarrer of the Generalgouvernment Belgien, and acting Feldpropst from 1918 to 1919.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Dave Danner

[joerookery]

Dave,

This is fantastic! How in the heck did you do it? Tracking backwards from the medals? Thank you very very much.

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Did anyone try to ID Schlegel's awards from his medal bar?

I found another photo with his ribbon bar...

Let's try and ID his awards:

Around the neck:

- Merit Cross 1st Class for Services to the Red Cross with War Decoration (Austria-Hungary) ???

Medal bar:

- Iron Cross (1914) 2nd Class

- Prussian Order of the Red Eagle 4th Class ???

- Prussian Order of the Crown 4th Class ???

- Prussian Red Cross Medal 2nd Class ???

- Prussian Long Service Cross ???

- ???

- South West Africa Medal in Steel ???

- Prussian Centenary Medal 1897 ???

- Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

The rest can't be seen on the medal bar... It's too blurry.

Ribbon bar:

- Iron Cross (1914) 2nd Class

- Prussian Order of the Red Eagle 4th Class ???

- Prussian Order of the Crown 4th Class ???

- Prussian Red Cross Medal 2nd Class ???

- South West Africa Medal in Steel ???

- Prussian Long Service Cross ???

- Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

- ???

- Something with Crown (perhaps foreign) ???

- ???

- ??? (again some sort of device)

I guess he isn't listed in the Rank Lists?

[922F]

Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

- ???

- Something with Crown (perhaps foreign) ???                            SEHO??

- ???

- ??? (again some sort of device)                                                     Bulgarian crown on MBO ribbon or crossed swords?    

Edited March 8, 2018 by 922F
ss

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

4 minutes ago, 922F said:

Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

- ???

- Something with Crown (perhaps foreign) ???                            SEHO??

- ???

- ??? (again some sort of device)                                                     Bulgarian crown on MBO ribbon or crossed swords?    

I'm sorry, what do you mean with "SEHO" and "MBO"?

[dedehansen]

Hi,

SEHO =   Sachsen Ernestiner Hausorden

Regards

Andreas

[Dave Danner]

Medal bar:

• Eisernes Kreuz 2.Klasse
• Roter-Adlerorden 4.Klasse
• Kronenorden 3.Klasse
• Rote-Kreuz-Medaille 2.Klasse
• Dienstauszeichnungskreuz
• Rote-Kreuz-Medaille 3.Klasse
• Südwestafrika-Denkmünze in Stahl
• Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtnismedaille (Centenarmedaille)
• Herzoglich Anhaltisches Friedrichkreuz am grün-weißen Bande
• Königlich Bayerischer Militär-Verdienstorden 3.Klasse mit Schwertern am Bande für Kriegsverdienst
• Großherzoglich Badischer Orden vom Zähringer Löwen, Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse
• Herzoglich Braunschweigischer Orden Heinrichs des Löwen, Ritterkreuz 2.Klasse
• Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse mit Jahreszahl 1914

I agree that the last ribbon on the ribbon bar is probably Bulgarian, based on the crown. "MBO" is the Military Bravery Order (Voenen Orden "Za Hrabrost").

[922F]

Thank you dedehausen---SEHO shorthand for Saxe Ernestine House Order.  If so, either a knight lst or 2nd class--Schlegel's rank plus the crown on service ribbon suggest lst class..

Bulgarian MBO shorthand for Bulgarian Military Bravery Order--ribbon light blue with silver thread side stripes.    Thus--though  blurred  to obscurity--the last may be Bulgarian Military Bravery Order ribbon with crown or crossed swords or both?   Images below illlustrate general appearances--couldn't find one with the crown only but these exemplify typical formats.  

 

Thanks to Dave as well, messages crossed in the ether!

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by 922F
add comment

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Thank you guys!

One question for Dave, how can you tell the difference between the 4th and 3rd Class of the Crown Order?

And the last few medals are very blurry on his medal bar. Did you perhaps already know all of his decorations or were you able to ID them now from his ribbon/medal bar? If so, props to you!

And if the last ribbon is the Bulgarian Military Bravery Order, what class does the crown represent?

And am I correct in saying that around the neck he is wearing the Merit Cross 1st Class for Services to the Red Cross with War Decoration (Austria-Hungary)?

Edited March 8, 2018 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[922F]

Prussian Crown Order 3rd class insignia has white enamel on the cross arms; 4th class arms lack enamel -- they present simply as gilt/gold metal.  Looks like Schlegel's bar includes an enameled [so 3rd class] example. 

A Bulgarian crown on ribbon in a German context usually only indicates that the ribbon is Bulgarian.  Given Schlegel's rank, he likely received a 4th class, first division [red enamel, pin back] MBO badge.   It is possible that he got the rare type without swords but image quality precludes this determination.  If Dave has rank list type info he may know the exact class/grade & resolve the with or without swords question.... 

 

Should note that Dr. Klietmann wrote [1950's or '60's] that a Bulgarian Crown on the ribbon indicates award of a rank in whichever Order the ribbon represents and a plain ribbon indicates receipt of one of the crosses associated with or part of the Order.  I've never seen this opinion confirmed elsewhere.

 

Austrian Red Cross terminology: 

[Honor] Decoration for Services to the Red Cross, lst Class (Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz, Erste Klasse) 

Edited March 8, 2018 by 922F
add info

[Dave Danner]

Schlegel was not a combat officer. He would likely have received a Military Merit Order on the ribbon of the Bravery Order, not the Bravery Order itself, such as the example below. There is no way to know what class, absent a better picture or a trip to the archives in Sofia. 

[922F]

Dave, 
By statute [c.f. Pavlov 2002, p. 130 & others] beginning in 1912, the MBO ribbon could accompany a MMO in place of the usual MMO yellow/white/black ribbon only when the MMO rewarded actual war [taken to mean battlefield or general staff level] merit and then only in the 4th, 5th, & 6th class.   Sixth class usually went to enlisted men, 5th class to senior NCOs & junior officers, and 4th class to mid-level officers.  MBO ribbons were not used with third & higher MMO classes.  Institution of the so-called 'war wreath' in 1916 did not affect this ribbon protocol. 

I suppose the odd foreign recipient could have ignored the statute & unofficially replaced a regulation MMO yellow/white/black ribbon with a MBO ribbon--like your image of a third class, post 20 above.   

If the ribbon under discussion in fact represents a MMO for war merit, it most likely would indicate a 4th, 5th, or 6th class award which might not be suitable for someone of Schlegel's rank/title.

As to MBO applicability, Bulgaria instituted a specific sub-class of 4th class, first [pin back] & second [breast badge] division, specifically for medical, religious, and musical personnel by 1915 statute amendment [c.f.Pavlov 2002, p  11].  These insignia do not have swords between the cross arms.  Some authors report this distinction appeared for second Balkan war issue MBOs though no authoritative documentation has yet appeared demonstrating this point to my understanding.

I posited MBO 4th, first division due to lack of pertinent rank list information plus Schlegel's position & personal rank/title.  That said, award anomalies do occur so -- lacking definite facts -- we may never know what award the ribbon indicates.   

By the way, Bulgarian Orthodox clergy received the majority of 'sword less' MBOs for religious personnel but a few Roman Catholics and Lutherans [& other Protestants?] as well as one or two Jewish & Muslim clerics supposedly earned this honor.   The true number of 'sword less' MBO awards remains unpublished but surely is relatively small. 

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by 922F
spelchek

[Bayern]

On 17/3/2012 at 17:34, Naxos said:

Great Image!

 

Here is another priest with bravery decorations:

 

The Tunic is rare, litzen on the collar, bright plain buttons , brest pockets and what appears to be Saxon cuffs.

[ixhs]

And what about him? Some kind of Klempnerladen on his frack.   It is god`s Büttel.

One of my favourite´s photos. Much better than the shown one at Ebay.

He had also the IC on non-combatant ribbon.

 

 

And that one. Meet Excellenz Faulhaber. These cards were given to german prisoners which were interniert in Switzerland.

He said this famous words: "Ihr wart bereit für das Vaterland zu sterben - nun seid bereit für das Vaterland zu leben..."

Faulhaber was one of the few recipients of the bavarian MVO (breast star) with ribbon for war merit.

I also collect photos of priest, Feldpater, Feldpröbste, Kriegspfarrer.

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by ixhs

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

On 09. 03. 2018. at 01:37, Dave Danner said:

Schlegel was not a combat officer. He would likely have received a Military Merit Order on the ribbon of the Bravery Order, not the Bravery Order itself, such as the example below. There is no way to know what class, absent a better picture or a trip to the archives in Sofia. 

 

On 09. 03. 2018. at 04:07, 922F said:

Dave, 
By statute [c.f. Pavlov 2002, p. 130 & others] beginning in 1912, the MBO ribbon could accompany a MMO in place of the usual MMO yellow/white/black ribbon only when the MMO rewarded actual war [taken to mean battlefield or general staff level] merit and then only in the 4th, 5th, & 6th class.   Sixth class usually went to enlisted men, 5th class to senior NCOs & junior officers, and 4th class to mid-level officers.  MBO ribbons were not used with third & higher MMO classes.  Institution of the so-called 'war wreath' in 1916 did not affect this ribbon protocol. 

I suppose the odd foreign recipient could have ignored the statute & unofficially replaced a regulation MMO yellow/white/black ribbon with a MBO ribbon--like your image of a third class, post 20 above.   

If the ribbon under discussion in fact represents a MMO for war merit, it most likely would indicate a 4th, 5th, or 6th class award which might not be suitable for someone of Schlegel's rank/title.

As to MBO applicability, Bulgaria instituted a specific sub-class of 4th class, first [pin back] & second [breast badge] division, specifically for medical, religious, and musical personnel by 1915 statute amendment [c.f.Pavlov 2002, p  11].  These insignia do not have swords between the cross arms.  Some authors report this distinction appeared for second Balkan war issue MBOs though no authoritative documentation has yet appeared demonstrating this point to my understanding.

I posited MBO 4th, first division due to lack of pertinent rank list information plus Schlegel's position & personal rank/title.  That said, award anomalies do occur so -- lacking definite facts -- we may never know what award the ribbon indicates.   

By the way, Bulgarian Orthodox clergy received the majority of 'sword less' MBOs for religious personnel but a few Roman Catholics and Lutherans [& other Protestants?] as well as one or two Jewish & Muslim clerics supposedly earned this honor.   The true number of 'sword less' MBO awards remains unpublished but surely is relatively small. 

 

Here is a full photo of Schlegel's medal bar with all medals visible.

Can we ID this medal bar too?

Is the last medal Bulgarian or some other?

[922F]

Last one may be a Norwegian St. Olav first type [1847-1906] Civil Divison, Knight First or Second Class.   Is that an Order of the Zähringer Lion preceding it?