Bulgaria Bulgarian Order for Bravery 1941

[ruiz]

I have a question about the Bravery Order III class, 2nd grade 1941. How many were produced ?.

Some of this awards were given to German soldiers. Do you Know the name of some of this German awarded? ( Bravery Order III class, 2nd grade 1941)

Best regards.

[Graf]

Hi,

Just to revive this topic with a question regarding the 1941 Model of the Soldier's Cross

According to some experts 1941 Model has 4 Classes as the previous models

However latest information coming from other experts and also indirectly from prof. Pavlov book it is suggested that

- there are only 3 Classes

1st Class Gold

2nd Class Silver and

3rd Class Bronze

It is also suggested that because of the above mentioned information this model wascawarded without crossed ribbons -no need for  them

So far I have not seen any Crosses from this Model with Crossed ribbons including Prof Pavlov book.

I have in my collection three of those crosses two Silver and one Gilded -none came with crossed ribbon

Any comments

 

Graf

 

Edited September 23, 2015 by Graf
problem with picture loading

[speedytop]

Hi Graf,

there are sources with different statements.

The Künker auction house offered 3 classes with the date 1941, gold, silver, bronze:

https://books.google.de/books?id=ZtkEf0E8nxAC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=bulgarien+"soldatenkreuz+für+tapferkeit"&source=bl&ots=zhrr6gq8Xt&sig=y3azlWPWD9SbWpuwLr-9tbeGrzY&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMI65mIj--NyAIVwbwUCh1yAQYP#v=onepage&q=bulgarien "soldatenkreuz für tapferkeit"&f=false

Prince Dimitri Romanoff wrote in his book, that there are 5 classes, the fifth class in bronze had been added.

The Carsten Zeige price catalogue from 2009 list 5 classes.

But see the documents you posted before in this thread:

- document with the award date 19. März 1942, handed out 25. Oktober 1942 > IV. Klasse

- document with the award date 10.6. 1942, handed out 27. 10. 1942 > IV. Klasse

- document written 22.3.43 > IV. Klasse

That speaks really for more than 3 classes!

I have only a silver class from 1941 in my collection.

Now we can select whatever we want? I don't have the answer.

Uwe

[Graf]

Hi Uwe,

Thank you for the reply.

Only the Document with date 27.10 1941 came with the actual 1941 Model Soldier's Cross

The Document dated 25.10 1942 came as a small Group with 1915 Model Soldier's Cross

The Document datd 22.3.1943 is  for The Officer IV Class 2nd Grade Bravery Order.

I have information tha all the Soldier's Crosses from the Kuenker Auction were bought by Uwe Bretzendorfer.

Before this Auction Uwe had published book in german about the Bulgarian Order for Bravery. In this book/preiskatalog he stated that there are 4 Classes of the 1941 Model of Soldier's Cross. However after the Kuenker Auction he is more convinced that only 3 Classes of the 1941 Model were produced and that the crossed ribbon were not given with this model, However in the early stages of the WW2 till 1942 when the 1915 Model of the Soldier's Cross was awarded with Documents, The Cross might have had 4 Classess

Also in Prof Pavlov book only three Crosses were shown Gold, Silver and Bronze, - none with crossed ribbon, however the author did not specify how many Classes of 1941 Models of the Soldier's Cross did exist...This leavesan open Question.

If this is true it make me believe that the 1941 Model Solder's Cross I listed in this topic  migh"  have been "married" to the Document dated 27.10.1942. On the other hand if the theory for 4 and more classes is true then this Group is genuine.

As you said "Now we can select whtever we want"  ....and look for the answer

Regards

 

Graf

 

 

[speedytop]

Hi Graf,

"The Document dated 22.3.1943 is  for The Officer IV Class 2nd Grade Bravery Order."

No. There is written "Soldatenkreuz des Tapferkeitsordens IV. Klasse", and it is for the "Gefreiten Nonnenmacher", an enlisted man.

Uwe

[Graf]

Dear Uwe,

I do not like to argue, however I was referring to the listing of the Document from 1943 with a 1941 Model of 4th Class Order for Bravery in a box, given to Oberzahlmiester

All my Documents related to Soldier's Cross are from 1942

 

[Graf]

Hi Uwe,

 

I cannot prove that the 1941 Soldiers cross were ever awarded or they simlpy are high quality samples Also their number is unknown  The classes of this Model could be 3, 4 and 5 in number. Depends of the source of information.

 

I am still looking for more information which can bring more light on the topic.

One is for sure that there is more evidence, from the Awarding Documents. that there are at least 4 classes

I came across those Documents for 2nd and 3rd Class. I am yet to see Document for 1st Class.

 

 

Regards

 

Graf

Edited May 16, 2016 by Graf

[V.Vazov]

Hello,

It is known that the 1941 emission has as well a "doctors" cross with no swords, as in the picture below from a catalogue.

Has anyone seen it? If someone is able to, would you post some photos of it?

Many thanks!

Vazov

[Graf]

New discovery.

 

Document for the 3rd Class 2nd Grade given to German Officer This is the first i have seen for a high Class

[922F]

Thank you--Quite Interesting!!

[V.Vazov]

Hi Graf,

Great discovery indeed!

What I find very curious is that the German headquarters' stamp.

Bulgarian orders have been largely rewarded to German officers as the practice is between allies, but I believed it is only the Bulgarian headquarters that could reword and issue a certificate.

I wonder why the German headquarter will reward a German officer with Bulgarian order.

Curious to know...

The order is boxed and very beautiful! Congrats!

Best,

Vazov

[jaeger7]

17 minutes ago, V.Vazov said:

...

I wonder why the German headquarter will reward a German officer with Bulgarian order.

Curious to know...

...

Hello,

for a pretty simple reason: The original Bulgarian award certificate has been writen in cyrilic letters. Nearly no German could read it. And one has to show a readable "Besitzzeugnis" to proof that one is wearing this order on a legal basis...

For this reason a simple translation of the certificate has been issued by the German authorities for e.g. Bulgarian or Turkish awards.

Regards

jaeger7-de

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by jaeger7

[V.Vazov]

Hi jaeger7,

Your suggestion is indeed quite logical.

However, I've seen Bulgarian reward documents issued in German.

Perhaps indeed if a document in German wasn't available, the German headquarters issued such sertificate as you suggest.

Best, Vazov

[Graf]

Hi V. Vazov,

Jaeger7 is correct.

It was a practice when foreign Award was awarded a Translated version to be issued by the Authorities in the recipient country.

More over no one have ever seen a Bravery Order Document from King Boris period, especially for the 1941 Model

I can speculate that the Orders were send to the gerna units and they issue their own Documents for a proff for wearing. I suspect the Bulgarian Document should have been send later, however i doubt that has happened withe the events that followed.

Here are few examples

choose files... Click to choose files

[V.Vazov]

Hi Graf,

Thanks for the clarifications!

I'd like to take the opportunity to restate a question of yours that interests me as well.

Have anyone seen a "doctors" cross from the 1941 emission?

Personally I've seen it only in the books.

If someone have other photos, from a museum, auction and so on, please post them.

Many thanks,

Vazov

[ilieff]

Vazov,

I suspect that the '1941' cross without swords which is shown by Prof. Pavlov in his book is a digitally altered image for presentation purposes only (a give-away sign is the ribbon which has been copied from another image). 

I won't believe in the existence of an actual '1941 doctor' until I see a photographic proof. Sorry for being pessimistic.

Ilieff

[new world]

I recall seeing such crosses for sale, however I did not like what I saw and decided to pass on them.

To me thesee 'doctor' awards were always questionable, as it is too easy to make them by cutting off the swords from regular awards.

Unless there's solid provenance we will never be sure whether such conversion was done 75 years ago or just recently.

[Graf]

Hi,

I have two Doctors crosses 1st and 2nd Grade.

Both they are  Original I explained somewhere in the Forum my opinion.

Both appear to slightly  smaller and finer then the Standard Crosses with swords, mainly the1st Grade, and there is no any signs of adaptations.

I will buy Doctors Cross only if it is made for the purpose. Any cross tha has been "adapted" by cutting of off the swords is not worth to add to your collection. I do not believe in this theory, that because they run off the purposely made ones. However it is your call  I will not buy such a cross

I have seen 1941 2nd Grade Cross for sale on eBay Germany 2-3 years ago It was sold by Prof. Pavlov son.

The main problem is that I cannot find in my files whether i saved it. Also I cannot recollect whether it was with cut off swords or not.More likely it was adapted otherwise i could have bid on it..but not sure

 

[V.Vazov]

Hello,

Thanks for the information!

With the Ilieff's eye for the graphical details and new world's experience, I believe the matter is quite resolved.

I personally have doubts as well for the regency emission of the order. Due to the historical context, I'm not sure that during those turbulent times a doctors sub category was ordered. Perhaps we can have more certainty about the complete emissions of all grades of the order, i.e. 7 dots and 1915.

Graf, what do you think?

However, do you think that such a conversion can be so masterfully made that no trace of cutting the swords remains?

Best,

Vazov

[Graf]

It is difficult to mask a cut off sword They go through the central medallion and any attempt to mask will leave some traces of the repair  i will try to provide you with better pictures to see very well rounded edges of the central medallion and even patina.  Also the 1st Grade Doctors Cross is slimmer the the Standard Cross -no room for a swords As I mentioned the Doctors Crosses are smaller, slimmer and finer the the Standard ones with well rounded rims between the arms

I have seen "Doctors' Crosses with cut off swords it is impossible to mask the cut off site 100 %

[new world]

11 hours ago, Graf said:

Hi,

I have two Doctors crosses 1st and 2nd Grade.

Both they are  Original I explained somewhere in the Forum my opinion.

Both appear to slightly  smaller and finer then the Standard Crosses with swords, mainly the1st Grade, and there is no any signs of adaptations.

I will buy Doctors Cross only if it is made for the purpose. Any cross tha has been "adapted" by cutting of off the swords is not worth to add to your collection. I do not believe in this theory, that because they run off the purposely made ones. However it is your call  I will not buy such a cross

I have seen 1941 2nd Grade Cross for sale on eBay Germany 2-3 years ago It was sold by Prof. Pavlov son.

The main problem is that I cannot find in my files whether i saved it. Also I cannot recollect whether it was with cut off swords or not.More likely it was adapted otherwise i could have bid on it..but not sure

You have good points, however the problem is that sellers usually don't use this type of side-by-side comparison when selling. You only see a single award advertised and you have no idea if it's slightly smaller than normal cross.

As for removing the swords - fakers make awards from scratch, removing swords and applying proper finishing will not be that difficult for them.

 

[Graf]

Hi New World,

Then our task is to ask for a side views and more information

..But then the whole Order will be fake - made with modern materials like the Bravery Order -3rd Class 1941 Model.

 

Here is a Modified Order with the swords cut off It is not a Bravery Order, however you can see how a good Order is butchered to increase its value The seller does not mentions anything about it, however the picture is self explanatory  Once i had similar butchered Cross and I returned it to the seller in UK.... you know him

[new world]

rare case for 3st class 2nd grade 1941 version

[Igor Ostapenko]

from museum in Krimea - order of soviet MG Bocharov L.P. 

two photos of Marshal Tolbuhin 

[ilieff]

Hi all,

Just a side note on the 'doctor' crosses.

A very large number of these crosses have their ribbon folded in a reversed way. I wonder if this is how they came originally and are meant to be worn? 

Ilieff