Uncategorised An eight medal bar... opinions?

[Hauptmann]

Posting this one for Nick Link (Obergefreiter). I realize there are no reverse views so am contacting him to see if he can provide same. But for now here's the medal bar with matching ribbon bar:

Over to you Nick...

Dan :cheers:

[Naxos]

Fantasy carnival bar

[dond]

Why not a Weimar era vanity bar?

[Naxos]

Why not a Weimar era vanity bar?

because the man must have belonged to every club and organisation - but even if it is period assembled - it still is a "fantasy carnival bar"

Edited April 30, 2012 by Naxos

[VtwinVince]

Isn't this the one that was for sale over at WAF?

[kapten_windu]

Isn't this the one that was for sale over at WAF?

yes, i also see it..

[Obergefreiter]

Alright, Gents, you've answered my questions. And thanks for saving me $450 bucks. :cheers:

Edited April 30, 2012 by Obergefreiter

[kapten_windu]

The exact same ribbon bar is also on sale in another thread with some other long ribbon bar that looks very clean..

The seller is also the same person..

Windu

[speedytop]

Hi, just for fun!

I have a set of b/w copies of decorations and documents of one man. Leutnant a.D.d.R., party member, and a friend of Prinz AuWi.

There are three medalbars (it could be, that you can combine two of them), with 23-25 decorations, some single decorations (not all with documents), and a mini chain with (only) 14 minis.

Here is the list of his documents for several decorations:

EK 2

Sa-Altenburg: Tapferkeitsmedaille

EK 1

Oberland: Gedenkmünze für Oberschlesien

Oberland: Tiroler Adler

Schlesischer Adler I. und II. Klasse (one document)

Kyffhäuser-Bund: Kriegsdenkmünze 1914/18

Bayern: Goldene Hochzeits-Erinnerungsmünze

Deutsche Ehrendenkmünze des Weltkrieges mit Kampfabzeichen

Ehren- und Erinnerungskreuz des Marinekorps Flandern (2x)

Infanterie-Rgiment 380: Regiments-Erinnerungszeichen in Bronze

Sächsisches Kriegs-Ehrenkreuz 1914/18 I. Klasse am weißgrünen Band

Deutscher Volksorden: Deutsch-Bekenntniskreuz I. Klasse

Kreuz der sächsischen Ehrenlegion

Frontkriegerbund: Frontkreuz

Deutscher Trainbund: Trainkreuz

Bund der Verdun- und Argonnenkämpfer: Ehrenzeichen für Verdun- und Argonnen-Kämpfer (3 documents)

Österreichische Ehrenlegion: K.E.K. mit Schwertern

Deutscher Volksorden: Komturkreuz (nowhere listed)

Ehrenbund Sächsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer: Goldenes Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern

Sachsenbund deutscher Weltkriegsteilnehmer: Sächsisches Kriegsehrenkreuz 1914/18 Ritterkreuz I. Klasse

Bund der Somme- und Champagne-Kämpfer: Somme- und Champagne-Kreuz (2 documents)

Prinz Alfons-Erinnerungszeichen auf blauem Bande

and later

Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer

Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938

Uwe

Edited April 30, 2012 by speedytop

[P.F.]

I am not sure how you can totally evaluate a bar with only 50% of the information...

Looks like a legit Weimar ensemble to me.

Kind regards

Pierce

[P.F.]

The exact same ribbon bar is also on sale in another thread with some other long ribbon bar that looks very clean..

The seller is also the same person..

Windu

Hi Windu,

I was curious as to what you are trying to say here so out of this curiosity I took a look at the sellers other ribbon bars for sale and in my opinion they are all genuine. In fact I would even call some of those Weimar ribbon bars uncommon at the very least.

Kind regards

Pierce

[JasonA]

Hello Gents,

I am the current owner of the medal/ribbon bar grouping in question. It is offered for sale at the WAF e-stand. What I'm confused about is why this bar is being evaluated here using only the front view? Additionally, I'm wondering why there's concern about ribbon bars just because they look very clean. And I don't know what is meant by "carnival bar."

I will say that I disagree with the tact of assuming something minty and clean is suspect because of its condition. It would be a more productive discussion to take the bar and analyze its construction, its awards, and its award precedence. Many items can still be found in mint condition, especially ribbon bars. They were worn less frequently than other items, and were often stored in a drawer or boxed away. Soldiers frequently had multiple bars to their name. New bars might be purchased as they gained awards, and the old ones would no longer be worn. The chances of finding an excellent to mint condition ribbon bar is higher than finding other things in the same condition that were worn and used more, or during combat situations.

I am a high condition collector. I have to go through countless dealers and meet countless collectors to find pieces like this. The fact that I have acquired so many is a testament to a dedicated and focused search. I pass on most bars I see because of condition, or more likely, because they're fake or tampered with in some way.

I am a Luftwaffe collector of officer and general rank. When I began seeking longer Luftwaffe bars for my uniforms, they were insanely difficult to source. I began ferreting out longer non branch-specific ribbon bars in the interim. Now that my Luftwaffe ribbon bar collection is healthy, I no longer need these. This is why you see many high condition, long ribbon bars for sale at once.

Jason

[Naxos]

...in my my opinion they are all genuine. In fact I would even call some of those Weimar ribbon bars uncommon at the very least.

Kind regards

Pierce

You should certainly acquire them then.

[P.F.]

You should certainly acquire them then.

Why? I do not collect Weimar bars.... but those who may be interested should not be put off by what is inferred here about the seller's goods.

[Naxos]

And I don't know what is meant by "carnival bar."

During the Weimar time these unofficial veteran's club decorations were often by WWI front soldiers referred to as "Karnevalsorden" - Hence the term carnival bar.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Naxos

[Claudio]

Hi Gentlemen!

I don't see any problems with the above-mentioned bar. Such bars really existed and usually have all sorts of Veteran Associations decorations; you just had to be a member of different groups/associations in order to be entitled to get them. They were worn for a relatively short period, because in 1934 most of these medals weren't allowed to be worn on bars, because the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer was issued and should have replaced all these ones. Many of such bars where cannibalized in order to put together new bars with medals that could be worn according the regulation of post 1934. Some bars just remained in draws or cases, carefully stored by their proud owner. Check please my earlier thread on Weimar medal bars: http://gmic.co.uk/in...l +bars +weimar

Just my 2 cents... don't worry Jason your medal and ribbon bar are ok; the fact that also rare 15mm ribbons are on the ribbon bars speaks for the authenticity of this group.

ciao,

Claudio

Edited April 30, 2012 by Claudio

[P.F.]

Check please my earlier thread on Weimar medal bars: http://gmic.co.uk/in...l +bars +weimar

ciao,

Claudio

Some very nice medal groups there Claudio!

Kind regards

Pierce

[JasonA]

During the Weimar time these unofficial veteran's club decorations were often by WWI front soldiers referred to as "Karnevalsorden" - Hence the term carnival bar.

Thank you for clarifying that. Without that knowledge, labeling a piece a "carnival bar" sounds like one is saying it's not an authentic bar. What it really means is that the bar contains awards for associations that some front-line soldiers turned their nose at.

In this case, we have a solid, authentic grouping. I see no evidence provided to the contrary; karnevalsorden speaks to the some of the awards only, not to the authenticity of the piece.

I think it's fair to make that distinction clear.

Jason

[JasonA]

Hi Gentlemen!

I don't see any problems with the above-mentioned bar. really have all sorts of Veteran Associations decorations. They were worn for a relatively short period, because in 1934 most of these medals weren't allowed to be worn on bars, because the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer was issued and should have replaced all these ones. Many of such bars where cannibalized in order to put together new bars with medals that could be worn according the regulation of post 1934. Some bars just remained in draws or cases, carefully stored by their proud owner. Check please my earlier thread on Weimar medal bars: http://gmic.co.uk/in...l +bars +weimar

Just my 2 cents... don't worry Jason your medal and ribbon bar are ok; the fact that also rare 15mm ribbons are on the ribbon bars speaks also for the authenticity of this group.

ciao,

Claudio

Claudio - thank you for taking the time to lend your expertise here. I certainly appreciate it.

Jason

[Naxos]

Thank you for clarifying that. Without that knowledge, labeling a piece a "carnival bar" sounds like one is saying it's not an authentic bar. What it really means is that the bar contains awards for associations that some front-line soldiers turned their nose at.

In this case, we have a solid, authentic grouping. I see no evidence provided to the contrary; karnevalsorden speaks to the some of the awards only, not to the authenticity of the piece.

I think it's fair to make that distinction clear.

Jason

Sorry Jason, I have no good reason to doubt the originality of the bar - just have an opinion on these kind of bars. And to clarify "fantasy" I meant the imagination of the wearer.

[Claudio]

I really like these bars; they were worn proudly by veterans that didn't have the chance to be awarded beautiful enameled dinastic orders which were given only to senior staff officers who most of them didn't even see the front or came close to it. But of course there were also a lot of associations members who bestowed on themselves and were in different veteran groups just for the sake of having as much bling-bling as possible. I find such bars quite characteristic of the confused Weimar Republic era. To me it's quite interesting despite the fact that such awards don't command high prices or have a bad reputation because considered self-awarded pieces. I noticed however how prices increased also for such pieces, maybe because some more "sexy" enameled order or kriegsorden became insanely expensive (see also Thies' auction).

[Naxos]

Odd is that the Bavarian award is in front of the Iron Cross - indicating that the wearer was a strong Bavarian national - yet he is a member of some very Prussian organizations.

[JasonA]

Sorry Jason, I have no good reason to doubt the originality of the bar - just have an opinion on these kind of bars. And to clarify "fantasy" I meant the imagination of the wearer.

I appreciate you clarifying that. You can see how a label of "fantasy carnival bar" without further explanation might inadvertently steer somebody in the wrong direction. Incorrect assumptions can easily be made, so it's important these things are discussed in a thoughtful and productive manner.

Thanks for revisiting the discussion.

Best regards,

Jason

[JasonA]

I would like to highlight the fact that this particular soldier saw front-line service of some sort, given the Bavarian Bravery medal and the Iron Cross, 2nd Class. Then it appears he was very active in veterans associations after the war.

J-

[Ulsterman]

a Karnival bar to a Saxon.