For Research Ribbon bar - original, and if so, is identification possible?

[GdC26]

Rummaging through my collection, I stumbled upon this ribbon bar.

Unless the ROA ribbon is used to denote a decoration of a state other than Prussia (as did ocassionally happen, I gather), the sequence on the bar strikes me as odd: 2x Prussia, Hindenburg cross, 2x Württemberg, ROA or ribbon used for decoration of another state, Reuss, 2x LW long service.

Can I invite views on originality, and if original and identification is possible, can someone please help identify the original owner?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,

Sandro

[Deruelle]

Hi Sandro,

The combo os your ribbon bar is strange. Indeed, the Hindenburg cross should be placed after the Reuß ribbon. Second pint, why there is no laurel on Wurttemberg ribbon (for MVO). When we read this without this device, it is for a soldier, not an officer !

Third point, the swords are all differents, very strange for a tailor ! I'm not a specailist of the TR Luftwaffe eagle but we need better close up to be sure.

To be honest I have a bad feeling with this ribbon bar, just my opinion

Christophe

[Ulsterman]

Hmmmmmm.........says WW1 NCO turned Jr. Lt. pilot to me....and thence into the Luftwaffe. Hmmmmmmm....I think I know who to ask. The combination is wierd, but so odd that I think it argues for original. (Devices I know nothing about-Stogieman?Stogieman?).

Hmmmmmmmm.....

[Claudius]

Indeed, a strange ribbon bar. There is much here not to like about it.

[dond]

I think there is an outline of a laurel on the MVO ribbon. Perhaps there are pin holes in the black stripes????

[Stogieman]

Can't really tell on the luft devices, not a clear enough image.

I think that's Hesse, not an RAO.

The different swords isn't an immediate dismissal for me.

I concur that it does look like a wreath shadow on the Wurttemburg ribbon.

Crisp, clean. large scans front and back would help!

[GdC26]

Gents,

Many thanks to all for your input sofar. DonD and Stogie are correct, there indeed are holes for the laurel leave wreath on the Wuerttemberg ribbon - I omitted to point that out n the description, sorry. Stogie, many thanks for the sugestion that the ribbon in fifth place could be Hesse - hadn't thought of that.

I'll take better pics tomorrow and post them for further reviw and input. Again, thanks for all of the shared insights sofar.

Regards,

Sandro

[GdC26]

Further pics, taken in daylight conditions, as promised.

Any comments appreciated.

Btw, is it my computer, or the Forum increasingly unstable?

Both yesterday and today, it took me several attempts just to open the thread and post a response ....

Anyway, it's done now.

Regards,

Sandro

[GdC26]

Double post due to Forum instability.

Edited May 17, 2012 by GdC26

[GdC26]

The images confirm that the Württemberg ribbon had a device attached. It also seems there was a device attached to the EK II ribbon at some point. I must admit I don't understand the greenish thread protruding under the swords on the ROA/Hessen ribbon. Studying the pics, I noticed that the device on the Reuss ribbon is attached by a thread around the top of the crown. Details on the LW eagles and the swords on the ROA ribbon look a bit weak to me, but I'm no expert on these devices.

[GdC26]

Here's a close up of the second half of the back.

Edited May 17, 2012 by GdC26

[GdC26]

Close ups of the front.

[GdC26]

And the final one. Greatful for your observations/informed comments. If identification is possible that would be great.

Edited May 17, 2012 by GdC26

[Stogieman]

OK, I can see the eagles are real, IMO, however they are definately replaced. If you look close; you can see holes from the original eagles that were removed. I think the bar was probably OK until little "monkey fingers" started messing with it. The bar may have been "de-nazified" during the immediate post-war era, and then some collector started 'fixing" the bar by adding the 2 gold eagles and the swords on the hesse ribbon. I think the other devices might be original and correct. More to follow in a bit, need to make a phone call.

[Arnim]

I think the LW eagles are too small. They look like buttonhole-ribbon eagles, not ribbon bar eagles. Maybe the tailor ran out. Maybe not.

The real key: the Ehrenkreuz is in the wrong place. This is a medal one had to apply for, like the American "Cold War" medal, not a medal which was awarded. It doesn't belong ahead of "real" medals! No soldier or tailor would put it there, only a fellow making up a bar with "real" parts!

Edited May 18, 2012 by Arnim

[GdC26]

Thanks Stogie. What did the monkey fingers do, other than replace some devices?

Specifically, did they mess around with the ribbons, as Arnim suggests?

Frankly, the bar looks to me like the ribbons have always been attached in the order they are currently in - I don't think the back has been replaced. And as other discussions over ribbon bars have shown, "Es gibt nichts das es nicht gegeben hat."

But I look forward to further views. Btw, I've had this bar since the late 1990's, well before the recent "ribbon bar revival".

Regards,

Sandro

[saschaw]

My first feeling wasn't good, but the more I look at it, the more I like it.

The "Hessen" ribbon, by the way, is a Baden Zähringer Löwe order! Maybe a knight's cross 2nd class with swords and oak, the latter being the reason if(!) someone removed the device...

Nice one! If you want to sell or trade it, please let me know. ;o)

It doesn't belong ahead of "real" medals! No soldier or tailor would put it there, only a fellow making up a bar with "real" parts!

Pictures prove anything was possible. I don't agree we can dismiss any bar with such reasoning.

Edited May 20, 2012 by saschaw

[GdC26]

My first feeling wasn't good, but the more I look at it, the more I like it.

The "Hessen" ribbon, by the way, is a Baden Zähringer Löwe order! Maybe a knight's cross 2nd class with swords and oak, the latter being the reason if(!) someone removed the device...

Nice one! If you want to sell or trade it, please let me know. ;o)

Pictures prove anything was possible. I don't agree we can dismiss any bar with such reasoning.

Many thanks Sascha. Have you (or has anyone reading this thread) been able to attribute this bar?

Regards,

Sandro

[Arnim]

A picture proves only the picture. Anyone can "field strip" a genuine ribbon bar, reassemble and take a picture. What does that prove? Reasoning is all we have to go on since the guy who "made" the bar is either dead or hiding.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Arnim

[Arnim]

Hey Stogie man,

Didn't you assemble and sell German ribbon bars on eBay a few years ago? I think I remember some of your stuff.

[GdC26]

Hey Stogie man,

Didn't you assemble and sell German ribbon bars on eBay a few years ago? I think I remember some of your stuff.

Arnim,

I don't know who you are or whatever it is you believe makes you an expert in this field, but you may want to read up on forum etiquette before posting anything like this.

Regards,

Sandro

[saschaw]

A picture proves only the picture.

Sorry for not being clear enough. I'm referring to period pictures showing awards being worn against the precendece rules...

[Paul C]

Hey Stogie man,

Didn't you assemble and sell German ribbon bars on eBay a few years ago? I think I remember some of your stuff.

If you are inplying that Stogieman manufactured and sold fake ribbon bars as real one then you are greatly incorrect! You can not coming on this forum and make these implications without some facts, which I do not believe you have. I must ask you to provides facts or remove your post with an apology!!

Edited May 21, 2012 by Paul C

[webr55]

This is ridiculous! I've been buying bars from Stogieman for many years. He NEVER sold fakes! Ask anyone here.

[Ulsterman]

Yup- but Arnim is either over confident in his own historical knowledge or a pot- stirrer.

No Arnim, not many people can "field strip" a REAL original TR ribbon bar and remake it. One potentially could-but in the same way that I could possibly wake up on a desert island with a naked Megan Fox: it isn't easy and reworked bars have to be done by craftsmen these days, as the orginal materials have not been made @ 15 years and it takes real skill and enormous amounts of time. Most fiddled bars have "tells" and now-a-days there are a LOT of cautious people out there....if you don't like it...then one walks away with ones ' money.

Objects at rest tend to stay at rest; this is a law of physics and old ribbon bars. Ribbons that were folded tended to crease and become dessicated. The last originals were made @ 70 years ago, so almost NO original bars have fresh ribbons or devices anymore. Even in humidity controlled bank vaults the ribbons get a slight "wear" to them-because of the chemical content in modern air and seasonal humidity.

Most of us here have handled hundreds of originals. One gets a certain' feel" for originals- whether it be by the patina, the ribbons, the smell, rust bits and whatever.

Also, I personally own @ 30 pictures of period ribbon bars in wear that are "wrong"- some catastrophically wrong. I have seen @ 50-100 more on the various forums. Many of the "wrong things" had a certain logic to them (including regulation changes in 1942/43).

Stogieman got into ribbon bars LONG before most of the present collecting community (and photos too) discovered the value and historical significance of ribbon bars. That was explained at great length by Rick Research in his posts on the WAF -and I witnessed the EXPLOSION in prices thereafter. Gone are the days when I could pick up the bar above for a mere $10-because few people-including most dealers, did not know "the story" and could not identify a Bavarian ribbon from a Argentine or VFW one.

Stogieman NEVER assembled nor fiddled with ribbon bars. He maintained an impeccable reputation because he got paid for doing so (this is the Bill Shea/Detlev model) and took GREAT pride in selling his wares. He has integrity. He was also very careful and when he got burnt and either sold the item as a repro or destroyed it. I seem to recall him tossing a fake one into the garbage in the old Lowell VFW show @ 10 years ago (but maybe that was Rick R.).

A Stogieman bar was/is a guaranteed original bar - and one paid a premium thereto. Also many of his bars were vetted./inspected by Rick-who also researched them.

Rick R. doesn't care about money at all, but he does care about history- very much-. Rick is also honest to a fault. His life and lifestyle are testimony to this. In case you do not know, Rick R. is the hands down world expert on these things- and has been researching them for 65 years.

So Arnim- just in case you were not trying to instigate a fight/lob a petrol bomb/ slander Stogie-now you know the background.

If you were intentionally trying to defame someone- your days here are over. We don't put up with that here.