Bulgaria FAKE BULGARIAN ORDERS ON THE MARKET

[new world]

that's correct, making hard enamel is elaborate process and most fakers can't do it. Checking enamel should be first thing you do when considering awards. 

[V.Vazov]

Hello Gentlemen,

How about this example from eBay.de?

The right sword is on the left one, whether it should be the other way around. Also the handles of the swords are not as they should be...

Do you thing it’s a fake? Or just upgraded star without swords?

Best regards,

Vazov

[922F]

Any reverse marking?  Center looks good.   Swords of this type readily available & these not precisely aligned or contured....maybe an upgrade 

[Graf]

I saw this Star on eBay Germany

The seller is claiming that it is Rothe Here is the back of the Star I cannot see clear Rothe marking For me the marking on the pin looks more like "800' for silver Many times the sellers just make a claims to make the item more saleable  I am more inclined th think it is German made if there are no any clear makers marking

The Star looks OK to me It is not unusual some of the makers to use parts from other Orders or the awarded person requested the Star to be modified. It is very difficult to say whether this was done at a later stage for a better profit, although this is also possibility The patina is the same. As one of the members suggested a very close look with magnification will be very useful The way the swords are attached is very important

I have few items in my collection that look odd,  however I accepted them because i could not find any signs for a later modifications or/and "upgrades"

 

Here is the back of the Star from eBay Germany and also some of my items One is also St Alex Star It is French type, however the swords were from a German States Order commonly used by Godet I did buy that Star in Germany from a reputable dealer few years ago. The other is French made Knight of St Alex and a third is the mini of the Bravery Order by Godet

This seller on eBay Germany is also selling a Commander of the Order of Military Merit The Order is OK with only one problem -the back central medallion is missing and is replaced with a bronze disk with a name This is questionable  The Price  200+ Euro suggests that not serious buyers kept away from it

 

Graf

 

[new world]

IMHO the star is not legit.

It is real star, however the swords and how they are attached don't look right to me. Most likely swords were added later.

This type with swords on top is very rare and would cost significantly more compared to common plain stars, so economically it makes sense to buy swords, attach them to the star and double your money.

[Graf]

Hi New World,

I agree with you the Star is OK only the swords are questionable Close examination can help however every collector has to make their own mind whether to have such item in their collection Only the awarded person or/and the few later owners of the Star will know the answer Who knows?

Original swords are usually attached with a rivet or a nut

I also have seen original swords attached in a wrong way Do we have to reject the Star or take it as maker mistake or the swords came off and re-attached wrong way

Anyway the Star on eBay Germany has to be looked with a question in mind.

[new world]

I'll have to look at my star with swords, in the meantime here's correct one from dealer listing.

As you can see, the swords are as they should be and there's a rivet attaching them to the star.

 

[Graf]

I just spotted this 2nd Class of The Order for Military merit on ebay.de

The Cross is OK, however the Star looks very strange

In my opinion it is one of those Stars with new enamel and someone tried ti age it and something went utterly  wrong

Judge by yourself

 

Best

[new world]

not exactly fake medal, star actually looks fine, but Godet and other stamps are very suspect.

Edited September 7, 2018 by new world

[V.Vazov]

Hello Gentlemen,

What do you think, fake or not?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts !

Best,

Vazov

[new world]

For sale by a dealer:

Военна ордена на смелостта, Гранд Крос. Instituted in 1880. Grade I with 1915-1917. In silvered bronze with red and white enamels, with four glass stones embedded in each handle of the crossed swords, measuring 48.5 mm (w) x 48.5 mm (h), vertical pinback, intact enamels, scattered silvering wear, near extremely fine.

Note that stones were attached to already worn award (see how silver plating is worn out and bronze metal is visible right under the stones). This is a sure sign that stones were applied later, after this medal was worn quite a bit. 

This was done long after this was awarded, likely it is a modern addition, to increase value of the award.  

[Graf]

Hi New World,

 

I agrree with your points

Those stones are just glued to the swords handles..and they look very new and modern

!00% recently "upgraded" item It was not a good job at all

This is either fantasy upgrade or as you suggest to increase the value

The question is who did it a collector or a Dealer ?

Unfortunately, there are still many collectors out there who are not members of any forum and they do not know the traps and tricks on the market They simply trust the "reputable' dealers  Note how the item is described. Buyer Be Ware rules apply.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Graf

[new world]

It doesn't really matter who did the "enhancement", what matters is that it was not official and does not belong to this award.

It certainly does not add to value of it, quite the opposite - it decreases the value.

Dealer put this on an auction and attached description to it which implied that this is some sort of improvement. The price is already above the price for what these crosses normally sell for.   

 

[Graf]

Hi New Word,

 

For me it does matter.

If the Dealer did it it is too bad If a lonely collector did it it point to creating purely  fantasy item

Any way No point arguing here  Our role is to detect any fakes or unusual items and list it for discussions and to warn the members

Best

[new world]

On 10/12/2018 at 16:28, Graf said:

Hi New Word,

 

For me it does matter.

If the Dealer did it it is too bad If a lonely collector did it it point to creating purely  fantasy item

Any way No point arguing here  Our role is to detect any fakes or unusual items and list it for discussions and to warn the members

Best

"If the Dealer did it it is too bad If a lonely collector"

Whoever did it - those stones do not belong there.

I think we can agree this was not done by the person receiving the award. This was given for acts of bravery and owner was an officer, this type of modification would result in jokes and mockery from his fellow officers. 

 

 

 

[Graf]

We all agree - Bad recent work

I agree the Officer will not add those fake Diamonds to a already worn Order.

Any way  item was sold

[new world]

2 hours ago, Graf said:

...Any way  item was sold

$401 + 20% premium

[new world]

Really bad fake, some sort of old star base with modern parts attached. 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by new world

[Graf]

Hi

 

What i suspected and we discussed this strange model of the Bulgarian Order of SS Kyril and

Methodius.

A Set of this model appeared for sale on a dealer site as "Collector's Copy"

For the first time we have more details pictures of this "strange' model

We can see the luck of the quality  typical for this Order bear in mind it was the highest Order of Kingdom of Bulgaria.

The mystery is when those collectors copies were made and spread on the market How many of them were made As you remember few of those copies were sold as "originals" on various Auctions and sellers sites 2-3 years ago One is in the Museum of Tallinn  on display

Interesting fact is that a Set of similar design of a mystery Order ( Discussed as well on this forum) was sold by the same seller

BTW this seller is currently selling few more  "Collector's copies" of various Orders from Europe

 

[Graf]

Pictures of the Set sold recently  by the same dealer

[922F]

Insignia shown in Graf's post immediately above belongs to the private Cyril & Methodius organization previously discussed.   Most material regarding those pieces posits 1920-30 French manufacture.

The 'collector copy' Cyril & Methodius collar set badge & star enamel and metal finish quality appear cruder than 1960's Rothe copies.  However, the format & execution have similar characteristics to those copies in terms of general shape [flames between badge & star cross arms, star reverse appearance, blue enamel hue, stippling absence, seraph detail, and so on].  Maybe someone found old French or Rothe dies? 

At one point in the 1970's-'80's, claims that Cejalvo of Madrid made Cyril & Methodius [supposedly for Simeon's use] badges and stars surfaced.  The badges were of the 'thin' arm variety.  The centers had struck saint images, I believe.  These do not look similar to those items.

Edited May 17, 2019 by 922F
spelchek

[Graf]

Hi 992F

I agree with you It is a mystery -who and when ?

I still interested in thje link with the Museum in Tallinn My theory is that they ordered a ?Museum copy? and the person who made it made few more for the market They all appeared within 1-2 years on the market  The Set for sale at the moment could be one of them.

 

Regarding the Sejalvo pieces = my research is that this company made only the cross at that time

On this picture the cross with the sash looks one of them

 

[922F]

 

Yes Graf, the above sash badge looks like Cejalvo manufacture.   Stars possibly attributed to them [sorry no image to hand] have a somewhat different center with blond seraph hair and between cross arm flames/fleur de lis element cut away from [or with a thin metal cut] between them and the cross arms.   Also this sash has a 'French' type bow & swivel.  I have seen sashes with bows like this, sashes with Austrian type rosettes & bows, and what seem to be the original method [FIRST image below].    

I cannot definitely say whether usual Cejalvo-made St. Alexander sashes  look like this one or more typical Spanish bows & tails.    Must do some more digging. 

I wonder about the Tallinn Museum set.   The SECOND image below, from the Tallinn Museum, seems to show a Cyril & Methodius set...with Austrian type sash!     

[Graf]

Hi 922F

Here are pictures from Tallinn Museum and The suspected Sejalvo Set as you described (although I have not seen on the market those Stars)

Regarding the Sash  I have seen originals with both types, however more with the bow only -no rosette( last picture)

 

 

[Relentless]

Dear Sirs,

I would like to add the above picture of Tzar Boris III. The breast star looks very much like the one in the Orders and Decorations museum in Tallinn, Estonia. You can see photos below. The other Bulgarian decorations at the museum in Tallinn look very realistic and original. It might me the case with the Order of St.St. Cyril and Methodius as well.

Regards