new world Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 On 04/06/2019 at 06:01, ilieff said: Hi all, Thanks to the director of the Royal Fund of King Boris and Queen Jovanna, we have acquired some exclusive insight to the mysterious azure Cyril and Methodius crosses we were discussing lately. These certainly aren't Cejalvo products as some theories suggested (though yes, C&M crosses have been minted by them upon appointment of HM The King). Among the Royal collection at present, there are two such azure orders of different grades. At least one of them has been acquired by a third party via a Klenau auction in 1978 and later donated to the Royal Collection. This information is in line with 922F's comment above. I'd be happy if anyone has the old 1978 Klenau catalogues and is able to cite what the description of these orders was at that time. Either way, these two orders are being treated as genuine at present. This means that regardless of their actual background, their authenticity is currently not being questioned by the nominal awarding body itself. So, is anyone in possession of the above-mentioned catalogue? If that's the case, then we should not be taking endorsements of this "royal fund" seriously. 922F set it straight - these are fantasy pieces, made from scratch for collectors. They resemble real awards and could fool most collectors at the times when information was scarce, but today we have enough reference materials to reject these imitations. What bothers me is the fact that this modern royal fund puts these imitations on the same level as authentic awards. Think about it - someone bought these at the auction, with no history, provenance or maker attribution, no proof these were ever awarded or even worn, yet this society decides they are legitimate. Why? Because they were donated? This is insane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 Comparing image details of the eMedals collar with the 1978 Klenau European Orders since 1700 Catalog collar reveals they are close 'companions' if not the same. Relative element size, flame 'veining' and many other specifics support this finding. I remember that the green enamel color of the connection links differs from original specimens too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 It looks like this same C&M set was sold at Klenau auction in 1978. Interestingly, there was also small collar for sale, which leads me to believe that full line of C&M insignia was made by someone. Is it possible that a collector or a museum commissioned some jeweler to make them all grades of C&M award? Someone who realized that he would never be able to collect all real insignia and decided to go for close looking copies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Just saw on eBay this shocking fake. Unfortunately a nice 4th Class of the Bulgarian Order for Bravery was butchered to create a fantasy Order -Russian White Army Price Tag $ 1800 Also This Star of the Order for Military merit brought my attention The seller is selling it bellow the market value I do not like this wide black line of the edges of the enamel. Also the way the swords were ?aged" I would not be adding this one to my collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Too true.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 Here is another shot of the Star The upper arm of the Cross is off the central line by a quite a bit Also the text is very slim and not quite clear The body of the Star looks OK i suspect the rest was added later I might be too critical, however there are too many warning signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 $1800 for a modified 4th class? What are they smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Stamp on pin reverse hinge seems akin to that of another another such 'slim text' star at same vendor. I must check but really do not recall seeing 'slim text' version before about 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 Hi 992F, Those Stars with the very slim text appeared around 2009 First on Ebay then on some Auctions around Europe, It was a work of well known distributor of fakes on eBay Viktor or Victor. We discussed him in the very early listings, when i started this topic He ended his activities and now he is selling high end Russian and Bulgarian fakes watches, and jewelries His Shop is called Viktor antique jewelries or similar His new adventure is to sell very expensive "original " items claimed to be Royal Russian and Bulgarian ones. He also sells many fantasy gold rings and jewelries with skuls Apparently he found selling fake Bulgarian Orders and decorations not very awarding money wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Copy of St Alexander 3rd class made by Gode. It even comes with a certificate. These used to be sold about 20 years ago, covered many countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Fake Observer badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 How about....... 5th class or 6th swords on commander badge with Civil Order of Alfonso X, the Wise, sash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREM Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 (edited) Hi! Link to the auction, what do you think about this IV th class of Military Merit Cross? It was sold twice, for a lower price https://allegro.pl/oferta/ory-odznaczenie-medal-krzyz-8476799603 Regards Prem Edited September 18, 2019 by PREM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Never saw fakes of this grade - crown enamels [at least] damaged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREM Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Thanks a lot ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) Again I saw this Observer Badge, which is of really low quality compared to known originals. I see them coming up for sale more often. I decided to do side-by-side comparison - questionable badge is on the left, real badge on the right. Main differences: - Flat looking eagle, lack of details, - Flat wreath, details are lacking, no relief on reserve, - Different lion on red shield, no vertical stripes, - No details for mountains below the sun, - Miloshev mark - some letters don't even look right, i.e. - look at the last letter in Strahil and Miloshev - they look more like Latin Z than Cyrilic letter. You would think that Bulgarian maker would get their own alphabet correct. What do you think? Can we conclude that these badges are fake? Edited January 7, 2020 by new world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Fake Ferdinand Election medal 1st class (on the left). This is a converted 3rd class medal (in the middle) with enamel applied to the center elements. Authentic medal is on the right, you can clearly see distinct features of 1st class (rays under red enamel, details in center on reverse, etc.). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OvBacon Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 So I assume that the resale value of a 1st class to be substantially higher than a 3rd class to through the hassle of applying enamel on this medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 14 hours ago, OvBacon said: So I assume that the resale value of a 1st class to be substantially higher than a 3rd class to through the hassle of applying enamel on this medal. Correct, about 3 times higher. Also, enamel they use most likely is not real enamel, so it's not that expensive. From the photos it looks like paint was used, especially on reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Keserdzhiev Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 On 17.09.2016 г. at 2:23, Graf said: Тази звезда е включена, в момента е на Ebay.de (Германия) II моето мнение е фалшиво Много съмнителен завършек - прекалено много дефекти за звезда от първи клас от този производител Емайлът лука и не е много добре дефиниран - подписва за нов мек тип един Системата с щифтове не е правилна Вашето мнение е необходимо. Може да греша, но не бих го купил Вижте детайлите с много груб завършек Притеснително е, защото използват тези марки на известни производители + Graf BTW Продавачът твърди, че е от колекцията му на дядо и той няма никакви познания за него ?? !!!! Graf 100% fake! I know the person in whom he makes them. They can't make crosses, but they make all kinds of stars, which are difficult to distinguish from an inexperienced collector! Be careful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Petar Keserdzhiev said: 100% fake! I know the person in whom he makes them. They can't make crosses, but they make all kinds of stars, which are difficult to distinguish from an inexperienced collector! Be careful! Agreed, this star looks suspect, details are lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 A number [at least 4] genuine Schwerdtner backplate roundels were sold on French eBay in the past 2 years. They were from French manufacturer Delande's old stock. Perhaps the faker bought them? I agree with Peter's opinion regarding the pin hinge attachment and sloppy detail work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted June 29, 2020 Author Share Posted June 29, 2020 Hi Petar, I agree with you and the other members - The Star is a fake I suspect that the enamel is a new soft one and will not pass the "needle test" The Star has so many bad spots to be original 1st Class Prince/King Ferdinand Model I also believe that the back plate cup with the maker name could have been copied from an original one There are Stars with the maker mark and also ones without this mark. The nuts on the back could be different Nevertheless all have very high quality finish You can see the nicely rounded edges of the stars arms See pictures provided It looks like that there is a new wave of fake Stars on the market I saw couple of similar Stars on the Bulgarian site -Auction.bg Well if there is a demand for Bulgarian Orders there will be always someone to try to "provide' them to the collectors. BTW Always be careful when the seller has a "story" and pretends not to have any knowledge. That is an Alarm bell ringing loudly Graf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Keserdzhiev Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Graf said: Hello Graf, everything you say is absolutely true - congratulations that you know them only by photos. I try to keep up to date with the new counterfeits so that I am aware of the market. Unfortunately - the "masters" are getting better, and some good workmanship is difficult to distinguish. now do not make them with soft enamel, and the test with a needle is not a guarantee. so, be careful when buying stars! Here is a photo with a real and fake 1st class military merit star Greetings! Edited June 30, 2020 by Petar Keserdzhiev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted June 30, 2020 Author Share Posted June 30, 2020 Hi Petar, You have more exposure to those fakes in Bulgaria. Always is a good experience when you have in your hands both the fake and the original item and carefully analyze and compare both (as on your picture) Then you can have a better chance to detect fakes even from pictures, although no one is bullet proof We all have our bad experience with fakes. With time we develop a nice guts feeling to accept or reject an item Regarding the enamel i am sure that as we improve our knowledge and experience the fakers do the same and they perfect their work It is their job Our job is to keep the collectors informed to prevent fakers making profit at our expense eBay is a good site for the fakers and most of us keep ourselves alert. Unfortunately, some professional dealers are buying and selling such fakes knowingly or not knowingly to make profit. There are few books out there how to detect fakes i suspect they are read by the fakers and they correct their work accordingly. BTW Welcome in our Forum. You already contributed few nice listings with rare items i suppose you are not novice in collecting Bulgarian Orders Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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