ThaiDave Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 We ought to move this to a new thread, as the old thread was for photos of early Thai Order of the White Elephants Dave or anyone, I wonder if you can help me (slightly off-topic) I was giving a talk yesterday on foreign awards to British servicemen WW1 and asked members to bring along any related groups. I was shown one group which amongst other things contained a 2nd class set of the crown, type 2, similar but of better quality than that which is awarded now. He claimed that it had been awarded during the great war period (from award point of view ) up to 1921. When exactly was the type 2 first issued? It will settle an argument and hopefully silence a smug ba*****d Paul Paul. My documentation from the Thai department of medals describes that the current design of both the Order of the Crown (OC) and Order of the White Elephant (OWE) was started in 2484 (1941). Often, the maker and date is stamped on the back of the suspension crown (usually) or pendant. Usually it is in Thai, but the numbers, almost always 2 digits but add 2500, can be read easily (see http://en.wikipedia....i/Thai_numerals), which gives the date in B.E. (subtract 543 yrs to get AD). That may also prove the point. But not all medals are dated. My earliest dated example of the current type OC is from 2496 (1953) or 2500 (1957). [96 -> i.e. 2496, might be 1996] I think I have I have some current-type miniatures reportedly from a German factory bombed out during WW2 (Zimmerman fire), so would be from the initial years, and they don't appear any different really from modern types. Overall, with both the OC and the OWE, there is significant quality variation between the private makers and later government manufacturers, so it's hard to use this as an indicator of age. Also, the medals are required to be returned when increasing in rank, and when passing on - these get refurbished and re-issued, which complicates dating somewhat. Except -> I saw one 3rd class example of the OWE manufactured by JW Benson, of the current type. Nice. [if you ever see one available, let me know ;-)] I have seen a couple groups with Thai OC or OWE which are the wrong period. I wonder if they are concoctions (assembled sets), or later replacements. This is mostly based on markings on the 4th and 5th class examples, as I've not seen early current-type examples of the higher classes. Note: It's not really type 2, but that's what they tend to call the current type, because the types before the so-called "type 1" are incredibly rare - so perhaps considered prototypes, etc. Rgds, Dave Examples: 1. 2500 in Thai (1957) [little hard to see the Thai "2" in the photo] 2. 07 in Thai = 2507 BE (1964) 3. 86 or 98 = 1986 or 1998 (I think there were a lot in 1986) 4. 36/1 = 2536 (1993), "/1" refers to the maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieter1012 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Hi Dave, I was surprised to read that the Thai medals Dept writes that type 2 of the White Elephant started in 1941. I presume that is the same as the present one with silver outer petals and a less elaborate crown suspension. My great uncle was Governor of Mid-Java in the early 1930's (still Dutch East indies then) and received in 1930 the third class of the WE which I have now and is the second type, although of much nicer manufacture than the present day ones. Also, pictures of him in uniform show him clearly wearing the 2d type. So in my opinion the 2d type was introduced earlier than the Thai Medal Dept states. Regards, Pieter Edited October 12, 2012 by pieter1012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiDave Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Hi Pieter, It would be interesting to see a photo of the medal. Does it have any marking on the reverse ? Are you sure that the medal you have is the original medal from 1930 ? Or was that just the date of the award ? I suspect that the medal itself was not bestowed, only the certificate, then it would have been up to the recipient to purchase their medal. I would suppose that any medal could have been purchased later or in any case replaced. Can you confirm the date of the photos which show the later type being worn ? I would tend to have some faith in the Thai medal department, since they are the ones that have all the documentation and history I do have several Thai medals books from the past 50 years span, and I could take a look at if there is any change of info on that aspect (some time when I get a chance to get back to the books that is). I might also take another look at the information I have (i didn't translate it to compare all aspects, just had it read to me) - however, this is consistent with what I've heard from others. My collection of Thai Order of the Crown and Thai Order of the White Elephant is about 200 pieces each (I collect by manufacturer and date), and I've handled probably another similar amount, and I've not really seen strong evidence of such really-early current-type pieces, unless they are similar to current pieces (manufacturer variation excepted). I"m not saying that it's not possible, but just that I would expect a little more evidence and examples. My project for the coming year is to put together something on the different manufacturers and dates and other variations. Maybe that will highlight something. Rgds, Dave 1. Order of the Crown current type "Type 2" (early example) - 4th or 5th class manufactured by Sampanaporn in 2496 (96) = 1953 2. Order of the Crown early type "Type 1" - 3rd class 3. Order of the White Elephant current type "Type 2" - 3rd class manufactured by Thai Nakon in 2506 (1963) 4. Order of the White Elephant early type "Type 1" - 3rd class Edited October 12, 2012 by ThaiDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi Pieter, It would be interesting to see a photo of the medal. Does it have any marking on the reverse ? Are you sure that the medal you have is the original medal from 1930 ? Or was that just the date of the award ? I suspect that the medal itself was not bestowed, only the certificate, then it would have been up to the recipient to purchase their medal. I would suppose that any medal could have been purchased later or in any case replaced. Can you confirm the date of the photos which show the later type being worn ? I would tend to have some faith in the Thai medal department, since they are the ones that have all the documentation and history I do have several Thai medals books from the past 50 years span, and I could take a look at if there is any change of info on that aspect (some time when I get a chance to get back to the books that is). I might also take another look at the information I have (i didn't translate it to compare all aspects, just had it read to me) - however, this is consistent with what I've heard from others. My collection of Thai Order of the Crown and Thai Order of the White Elephant is about 200 pieces each (I collect by manufacturer and date), and I've handled probably another similar amount, and I've not really seen strong evidence of such really-early current-type pieces, unless they are similar to current pieces (manufacturer variation excepted). I"m not saying that it's not possible, but just that I would expect a little more evidence and examples. My project for the coming year is to put together something on the different manufacturers and dates and other variations. Maybe that will highlight something. Rgds, Dave 1. Order of the Crown current type "Type 2" (early example) - 4th or 5th class manufactured by Sampanaporn in 2496 (96) = 1953 2. Order of the Crown early type "Type 1" - 3rd class 3. Order of the White Elephant current type "Type 2" - 3rd class manufactured by Thai Nakon in 2506 (1963) 4. Order of the White Elephant early type "Type 1" - 3rd class Thanks Dave, confirmed my supicions, probaly a later upgrade Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieter1012 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi Dave, thank you for your reaction. I took some pictures of the White elephant, plus a good portrait photo of my great uncle in uniform, on which the WE type 2 can clearly be distinguished. I have also taken a picture of the certificate in Thai language (actually the date of award was 1929). Now the problem; I don't seem to be able to place these pictures on this site, always get the message that it is too big for some reason. I have to ask my friend Nick (Japan X) to place them for me, as he was so kind enough to to that before with the Japan thread. Anyway, I hope you can see them soon. The pictures of my great uncle in uniform are only from the period 1928-'32, when he was governor of Mid-Java. After that he retired from the civil service and returned to the Netherlands. He received some other orders and they all came with the estate when he died. It included a set of miniatures, to be worn with white tie and that has the 2d type WE too. It is very unlikely that he had them made later, as after retirement he lived in the country side with no official functions anymore (I include also a picture of this). Regards, Pieter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjcp Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I was going through a stack of boxes filled with award docs and pics, and I came across this picture and I thought it might be of interest. From the medals, the earliest this could be is some time around 1934-35 due to the 1931-34 incident medal (6th across). It could however be the 1937 china incident medal but from a close examination of the picture I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiDave Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi fjcp, The photo has to be from 1941 or later, as that is only when that version of the Thai Order of the Crown was used. Rgds, RDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjcp Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi there, Thanks for the info... What I should have said was, that as far as the Japanese medals are concerned it couldn't be earlier.. I know almost nothing about Thai orders. JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeanphy Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hi I found this medal on a flea market If i well understand it 's a 1st type but I don't know the class. Is it possible to date this medal? Witch ribbon for this medal? Thank you for your answers and I apologise for my very bad english best regards JPhy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The photo has to be from 1941 or later, as that is only when that version of the Thai Order of the Crown was used. Missed this thread. This photo was made before 1938 (after 1938 rank bars were moved from the shoulders to the collar ) P.S. By the way, damn good photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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