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Hi Erik,

welcome to this forum and for your posts.

I never seen an banner like this and I don't belive that this is from the WW1 period.

The details and the quality is not as banners I seen from other units. I think this is a postwar piece.

I'm sorry that I have to bring you bad news but I don't like the Commemorative badge. It has the Meybauer stamp but it is not a badge by this maker.  I worked with Pandis on his latest revision of his book about the German navy aviatio badges, but a badge like you is not included.

Loo on this post for a Meybauer style badge.  This is also presented in Pandis book.

Kind regards

Alex

Edited by jaba1914
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I sent to Panda but I dn have the right pixel to submit and include in his book. I just bought a Fuji XT30 and will upgrade my pictures  as soon as I master the new camera. He said it is a variation on the same one u mentioned. He liked it a lot. This came from a private collection of the highest pedigree.  If u like pedigree, I will be posting early naval canvass from James Baldwin’s personal collection.  Meanwhile.... here is a tease if u love naval badges....  

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I don't have the printed version of the book, only a digital draft version for review and there is no commemorative badge on page 85.

The resolution is not good but this is not a Meybauer badge at all. Hinge and pin are not similar to known piece of this maker so far. I can proof the estate  and for me this doesn't make any difference.

I also not agree the theory that the badges with a ray back are made by Godet.

I love to see more of your navy aviation pieces.

Edited by jaba1914
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Alex. I am not being fair with u because u need more detail pictures and u have nothing to compare this against.   Bullion collectors go nuts on stuff this like.   I am attaching a post-war early Weimar (1919 - 1921) silk-screen banner made on  sheepskin (joking) and clearly lacks all the bullion beauty that disappeared w war shortages and other needs and changes in technology.   I am also enclosing bullion samples. Some were published last month in an OTF article by Carsten Baldes.  He concurred this Zeppelin Banner was  early war.   First one he had ever seen.   WW2 TR banners are going 20 to 30 grand I heard.  I haven’t had these appraised but my TR DZR is another sweetie.... added for comparison w the Weimar zeppelin banner.   Of course maybe we should just stay w stay w the tried and true.... and talk about Naval Zeppelins!!!  My favorite badges next to Air Gunners. 
 

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Thanks for posting your pieces.

Can you post reverse pictures of the air ship badges?

The patch Gr. Kampf-Flieg 83. does not make any sence. There was no unit existing with this name in WW1.

Kind regards

Alex

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Naval Godets r the most beautiful of all the Naval badges. There r only 4 known in the world. Carsten owns one. I am extremely fortunate to have  three.  These came from a string of high-end collectors that I can trace back to Germany 40 years ago.  The text books need to be updated w new information and trends and other data regarding the Godet brand.   The naval is silver w brass gilding is beyond beautiful. The prizen land is mint.  The war-merit full-size  is the best known war-worn naval land pilot badge extant.  The asterisk mark is on other known Godet badge I have.  The Godet rayback has a very well known style and again is consistent w the Naval Godets below.  I will get u better pixs.  Thanks Harry for posting page 85.   I agree the hinge is not correct but I have a mint Meybauer observer prizen w a replaced pin if u want to see it. One must be diligent in understanding what is really being looked at given 99 percent of high-end aviation badges r forgeries.  I appreciate any comments good bad or a questions. Godets r not only the rarest naval badges out there, they r stunningly beautiful.    

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The asterix mark is not a evidence for Godet. You can find this on other decoration not made by Godet too.

the specific hinge and pin is typical for breast crosses and stars made by different makers not Gidet only.

I know another navy observer of this maker out of a group.

but this is a topic that would blow out this thread.

Kind regards

Alex

 

 

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Akex. Have u seen Carsten’s OTF article  on the unit patches?   Send me ur email and I will scan a copy over to you.  He specifically addresses that unit patch in some detail.  Also here is the reverse on the Meybauer zeppelins.  Also an Army time period batallón banner for comparison w only known surviving Zeppelin banner.   Hope u find this interesting and helpful.  The funeral RIFF ribbon below was from Andreas Busch (L19) funeral service.  The hand-colored lantern slide show the sinking of the L19 in Feb 1916. 
My book will feature dozens of  original L19 objects including the rarest of all known Zeppelin paper in the world. Note the separation between crown and wreath.  First thing i look for on the reverse.  Each is a text book sample.   The latest naval Meybauer sample is not yet in any of the existing text books. It was sleeping for decades in a German collection.  Only 2 known original Meybauer Naval badges have sold in the last ten years.  One was private sale; the other, private auction.  Historically a zeppelin badge comes up for sale maybe once every five years. The number of original surviving zeppelins badge is quite small.  Only 14 original Godet. Zeppelin badges r known of all sizes, including Commander’s Dietrich prizen cuff link below right of the navsl Meybauer in the 4th pix.  Carsten has the largest zeppelin badge collection in the world.  It’s 13 or 14 I think. His is stunning. Mine r arguably the finest known samples.  
commander Frey owned the bottom right a Schott silver nickel army zeppelin. See Carsten p 572 for a close example.  Does anyone here collect naval commander group sets?  That’s a whole other beast for a long thread if anyone is interested.  

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"...the rarest of all known Zeppelin paper in the world. "  -what is the rarest known Zeppelin paper?

"Does anyone here collect naval commander group sets?  That’s a whole other beast for a long thread if anyone is interested." -why yes, I am interested in seeing this.  Please do start a new thread dedicated to it. 

 

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Hey Claudius.  What do u know of the L19 sinking?  I see u like WW1 German Tsiango. Do u collection uniforms?  Man-cave displays w all original minty badges?  How about an airman’s near mint silk-cloth naval officer’s  summer tunic  w officers hat belt epaulettes pants and all buttons and best part custom-made by Tsiango tailors w provenance?  I’ll have to learn how to start a new thread and do private emails.  My first time posting was today.  I see u like group sets. How many zeppelin commander r out there - 6 not in museums?  Super rarified air.   Carsten has one maybe 2.   He’s definitely has at least one PLM group set.  I avoided 2 major mistakes because of his help.   If u like group sets have u heard of Zep Commanders Frey, or Dietrich - who also headed the Ju bomber program in WW2?  Do u collect plm group sets?  Those I am told r at the top food chain.   I appreciate ur interest and will figure out how to start a new thread here.  

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31 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:

Hey Claudius.  What do u know of the L19 sinking?  I see u like WW1 German Tsiango. Do u collection uniforms?  Man-cave displays w all original minty badges?  How about an airman’s near mint silk-cloth naval officer’s  summer tunic  w officers hat belt epaulettes pants and all buttons and best part custom-made by Tsiango tailors w provenance?  I’ll have to learn how to start a new thread and do private emails.  My first time posting was today.  I see u like group sets. How many zeppelin commander r out there - 6 not in museums?  Super rarified air.   Carsten has one maybe 2.   He’s definitely has at least one PLM group set.  I avoided 2 major mistakes because of his help.   If u like group sets have u heard of Zep Commanders Frey, or Dietrich - who also headed the Ju bomber program in WW2?  Do u collect plm group sets?  Those I am told r at the top food chain.   I appreciate ur interest and will figure out how to start a new thread here.  

Without intending any insult or malice I would ask of you to put down the coffee and use some breaklines in your posts. like this...

Here is the next line which makes it so much easier on our old eyes and it makes it easier to see a next question or subject.

Keep posting but make it easier for everyone to read.

 

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Hey Claudius.  

What do u know of the L19 sinking? -nothing more than what is widely available, but I'm always open to learning new details from privately-sourced documents and research.

 I see u like WW1 German Tsiango. Do u collection uniforms?  -Yes, I collect Tsingtau documents, photos, medals and militaria related to individuals in the WWI siege and subsequent POW captivity in Japan.

Man-cave displays w all original minty badges?  -no man-cave for me, just in riker mounts locked up, but I do have some small specimens at home.

How about an airman’s near mint silk-cloth naval officer’s  summer tunic  w officers hat belt epaulettes pants and all buttons and best part custom-made by Tsiango tailors w provenance?  -I would love to see it.  Which of the two pilots stationed at Tsingtau did it belong to?

I’ll have to learn how to start a new thread and do private emails.  My first time posting was today.  -no problem, it's your first day.  But yes, please start multiple threads.  Post your items and ask questions, BUT first search the forum to see if those questions weren't first answered by someone else, maybe long ago.

 I see u like group sets. How many zeppelin commander r out there - 6 not in museums?  Super rarified air.   Carsten has one maybe 2.   He’s definitely has at least one PLM group set.  I avoided 2 major mistakes because of his help.   If u like group sets have u heard of Zep Commanders Frey, or Dietrich - who also headed the Ju bomber program in WW2?  Do u collect plm group sets?  Those I am told r at the top food chain.  -Yes, I collect group sets.  How many Zeppelin commander groups do I have?, or PLM groups?  I don't usually find them like low hanging apples from trees ready to be picked at any moment.  But maybe I'm walking in the wrong orchards.  If you know where modestly priced Zeppelin commander and PLM groups are just waiting to be bought....I would luv to hear it.

 I appreciate ur interest and will figure out how to start a new thread here.  -navigate the site and you'll find out there are a lot things here.  Check out the "Lounge" area near the bottom of the main webpage.  There you can post off-topic, questions or observations for fun and entertainment.  

And oh, by the way....Welcome to GMIC!

Edited by Claudius
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You are talking about a book you want to write or allready started with.

What should this book cover?

Is it only prensent pieces and item or give researched background information to different navy aviation topics.

I know several groups of airship commanders of different extent but I assume you are only mentioned award groups.

I have myself a group of an army airship commander and a medal bar of an navy airship commander.

 

I didn't count the number of badges of different makers I have seen over the years but all of them are scarce. This fact is  not of much interest for me. I'm more interested on the persons and history behind.

I'm not Claudius but I know the group of Olt.z.S. Richard Frey before it was offerd on auction.  I don't think that someone here focus on PLM groups or navy airship commanders because you can't find any. 

Knd regards

Edited by jaba1914
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Zeppelin Commander Frey Group Set 

 Sorry not the best quality bc pixil size allowed here but this is what a real Zeppelin Commander Group Set looks like.  The badge is an extremely rare silver-plated nickel Schott  it has a nice weight to it  

A set like this has tripled in value in the last 5 years.   There r only six zeppelin group sets that remain in private hands or that have not been broken up or acquired the museums. 

 

 

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The book will not be the standard show and tell  - the major  textbooks need updating to adjust for new info that this book will have.  Hint: don’t  buy a Tyoe 2 Front w a Type 1 Rayback Reverse Poellath Bavarian Observer.   They r all fake!   Just like all Junckers Zeppelins badges - but some of u knew about the Junckers.   I give Panda  credit for enthusiastically updating his work but something sorely is needed on investment  collecting in high-end WW1 German aviation. It will give it to u straight on how to invest even if u don’t have a lot of money and more importantly how not to buy mistakes.  

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Bullion update on  Gr. Kampala-Flieg 83 

Alex.  I bought this unit sleeve patch from a long-time collector who actually bought this many  many years from Helmut Weitze - a big Navy enthusiast!    GR Kamala Flieg 83 was a front line bomber squadron.  My German is very bad but here are more details in German if u want to translate what Helmut wrote.   
 

Th F 221 squadron sleeve patch  above another former Helmut piece from his personal collection that he sold to the same collector.  The F stands for Fortress (Feststungsflieger). F 221 squadron is well documented in OTF literature.  
 

Most of the time if u can find any German squadron sleeve patches, they r soiled, moth eaten, and worn and faded.  20 years ago -  if u could find one in this condition - it would have sold for well under 500e.  Today’s retail for a storied squadron patch in mint condition easily has tripled. I wouldn’t be surprised if Helmut would put  ask 6FD24F87-678F-460D-996A-A9C2A287E254.thumb.jpeg.ad1bd54e270b23960ea294973bcdac36.jpeg1500e to 2000e bc of its quality and bc it’s so rare, and Bavarian unit patches and cloth bullion have become the darling of several major aviation cloth collectors who r all looking for the same thing.  My point is there are a lot cool and really rare German aviation pieces that are still out there at affordable prices. 

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I find it quite remarkable when a new 'expert' shows up out of left field with claims to ultimate knowledge on this subject, one which is fraught with so much misinformation. And using Weitze as a source is pretty ridiculous, as this dealer has been exposed as a frequent purveyor of fake and fantasy pieces.

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About Opinions 


First thank u for ur comments.  Opinions r gladly welcomed. I take none of it personally. If Alex is right then truth will out and he has done another good service for us. I am not new a new expert or mean to rub anyone the wrong way bc this is an open forum for ideas.  This chain has seen more activity in a few days then in a long time.  This I think Akex would agree is good!

This is a process of learning and ultimately consensus.  It is an evolving field as the knowledge becomes more known.  Hence this forum - one of many.  Because it’s interesting. Because we all stand to learn and understand and not buy mistakes - for those who r collectors  

About truth  

I find Helmut to be a gentleman in his dealings.  All dealer occasionally buy mistakes, ie the Junckers Naval Air Gunner w only 2 rivets!  Panda will tell u all day long what he thinks is fake on any site if u ask  Including well recognized dealers and auctions.  That doesn’t mean there are not great pieces and good opportunities - though I rarely buy from retail dealers.   The key is not to buy mistakes.   And if u gentlemen r right that these two squadron sleeve patches r fakes well that’s okay.   It’s part of the territory bc u r saying  the squadron units do not exist.  Seems easy.  A further reply will be made.  There are other experts highly interested in this debate.  I stand for the truth.  Let it will out.   It’s never personal what the evidence reveals about a piece  

And Vince there’s also nothing out of left field in ur silence (or anyone’s) on the naval badges I posted.  That speaks volumes bc they r textbook.   Its all good though.  I totally agree w u that this is a field fraught w a lot of misinformation.  And  I look forward to ur friendship in bringing clarity and truth and having fun in the process.  
 

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