Soviet Any clue on this 1927 Marksman Badge?

[Stogieman]

Anybody have any clue if this is legit? Nothing I've seen before, quality looks very good, screw-disc doesn't seem to match the era though? Any/all comments appreciated!

[Stogieman]

Reverse view

[Stogieman]

Another shot. Thanks for your help!

[Chuck In Oregon]

In the interest of full disclosure, I do sometimes sell things -- including Russian badges -- on eBay.

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I saw this badge up for auction, too. Since it is an area that I collect and one that interests me, and I don't have one of these, and it's not too outrageously priced, I thought about bidding. That's something I seldom do.

It is pristine, that's for sure. It would look great in my collection of Russian shooting awards. However ... the other eight badges he is showing look perfect, too. Yes, nine perfect scarce/rare Soviet badges could have come from an advanced collection. He does say they are a consignment. Plus, his feedback is solid. Those things weigh in the seller's favor.

OTOH, the sudden appearance of nine scarce/rare badges in mint condition raises my suspicions. Also, his return policy is, in part, "all claims of the item "not being as described" have to have a substantial documented and objectively verifiable basis". In other words, no returns unless your reasons meet his vague and unquantifiable standards. If you simply don't like it or if the item doesn't meet your standards once you receive it, that's not enough. I would not buy anything if I had to agree to those terms.

I seldom if ever post my opinion regarding the bona fides of items owned by others. At the most, I will post an image of something that I own that you can compare to an item being discussed. If asked, I will do that for two of his other eight badges that I happen to own. Accordingly, I do not offer an opinion of the badge here. I simply offer my reasons for staying away from this auction. Your approach is undoubtedly different than mine and I wish you luck if you decide to bid.

Chuck

[Stogieman]

Hi Chuck, I've had one very good experience with this guy. Everything was exactly as it seemed to be and then some. I too passed on many of the badges he's tried to sell. Some on price, but most on "Gee, I dunno..." But based on the positive experience, I figured the other stuff was worth a look. I rather suspect someone has pillaged a museum to be point blank honest, but that is pure speculation on my part. He's in Boston, somewhat local to me. If you want it, go for it! I have no serious 'need" for it at all, just thought it was pretty darn nice and well into the "obscurity' thing that always appeals to me! ;>)

[Chuck In Oregon]

Hi Chuck, I've had one very good experience with this guy. Everything was exactly as it seemed to be and then some. I too passed on many of the badges he's tried to sell. Some on price, but most on "Gee, I dunno..." But based on the positive experience, I figured the other stuff was worth a look. I rather suspect someone has pillaged a museum to be point blank honest, but that is pure speculation on my part. He's in Boston, somewhat local to me. If you want it, go for it! I have no serious 'need" for it at all, just thought it was pretty darn nice and well into the "obscurity' thing that always appeals to me! ;>)

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Your personal experience carries a lot more weight than my non-specific misgivings. That badge, like I said, would fit nicely in my collection. However, I'll have to pass given those refund terms. They just don't make sense to me.

Anyway, money's a little tight right this minute. I just wired off some money on Wednesday for a group that belonged to a 1920s-1930s personal pilot of a Commissar of Food Production. It includes a screw-back RBL with doc and some very early aviation society badges. It's coming from his family. I'll bring it back with me in May and I'll share some images then.

Chuck

[gor]

Sorry,but it's fake. The real one never had enamel.

[Chuck In Oregon]

Sorry,but it's fake. The real one never had enamel.

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That would contradict the entry in Avers-5, page 211, item 807. It's the one the seller references. Some crossed-rifle shooting badges didn't have any enamel, but I don't see any reason to doubt the book about this one.

BTW, welcome to the forum gor. Good to have you here.

Chuck

[gor]

Avers-5 isn't good book for professionals .This book has a lot of pictures but many of them are fakes or fantasy badges.

[Chuck In Oregon]

Avers-5 isn't good book for professionals .This book has a lot of pictures but many of them are fakes or fantasy badges.

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Are we talking about the same Avers-5? ISBN 5-86-208-044-9? IMHO, the drawings in Avers-5 are pretty good representations of real badges. They may have included some fantasy pieces, but I'm not aware of them. As for fakes, wouldn't a drawing of a fake look pretty much like a drawing of an original?

<<Avers-5 isn't good book for professionals>> I'm no professional and I defer to those who are. I really don't know what professionals in this field use for badges. Myself, I use the Avers series to identify items and I am reasonably well satisfied with what I can find there. They don't pretend to be encyclopedic, just informative, and they don't pretend that their drawings are really pictures of originals. That's why I need other references. I'm no great defender of Avers. I have and use four of them and some other references. So far, for what I use them for I have never had a problem.

Back to the badge in question: I am not qualified to judge its bona fides. You may be. I have merely given my thoughts about buying mint-condition old badges from someone who doesn't offer what I consider a reasonable return policy. Stogieman, OTOH, has had a good experience with this seller and he is someone whom I respect. His opinion means something to me.

Is this a fantasy piece? No, it doesn't appear to be and no one has said that it is. Is it a fake because the original never had any enamel? I suppose it could be, but lacking an undisputed badge in original condition to compare it with, or a clear picture of such a badge, I'll just go along with what the book says and believe that is either an original or a nice imitation thereof and that the original had enamel as shown. I ask no one to agree with me, that's just where I am. I would welcome your proof to the contrary. It will make for an interesting discussion and give us a learning opportunity.

Chuck

[Stogieman]

Interesting, no further comments.... The badge did not sell and many of the others he's had have received disparaging comments both here and on other forums. My experience with him was with a uniform that is everything it should be. While waiting out the shipping is always a harrowing experience, I will certainly keep an eye on his offerings! ;>)

[Chuck In Oregon]

Here is an example of the badge without enamel. It is, by far, the worst-condition piece in my collection of Soviet and Imperial shooting awards. I couldn't find it the other day when we were discussing the badge at auction.

I bought this piece from an unusual little guy who has an outside space at the Dry Bridge flea market in Tbilisi. He says that he dredges a few favorite spots in the Mtkvari River and that's how he finds most of the things he sells. Certainly, that extraordinarily polluted river would eat the enamel off of anything, and much of what he sells is in similar condition, tending to support his story. Despite what he says, it is at least possible that this is a grave-dug item. A third possibility might be that it was ruined when it sat in a flooded or at least very wet (and polluted) Tbilisi basement for 40-50 years before someone found it again. Of course, a fourth possibility would be that it never had any enamel to begin with. While I think the last is the least likely possibility, I admit that it is possible. I have never found a better example to compare it with.

Of course, this doesn't shed any light on the badge we were talking about. I just found it today and thought I'd share it.

Chuck

[Riley1965]

Chuck,

That's the type of Soviet Marksman badge I've been lookin for.

Doc

[Danny]

If this is the seller I think it is, he always has very hard and difficult to find badges for sale. In fact, he is the only one who has multiple extra rare badges and, for me, it is just too good to be true. Since his badges don't sell, I am assuming that others around the globe have the same feeling I do. Remember if it's too good to be true, then it isn't what it should be. Good luck for those bidding on his badges and please post a feedback here if you do purchase one.

[gor]

Some examples of original badges made of gilded bronze.

[gor]

next one

[gor]

next...

[gor]

.............

[gor]

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[Bryan]

Very nice badges!

[Ed_Haynes]

Oh . . . nice! Thanks for posting, gor.

[Stogieman]

Greetings Gor, thanks for posting so many beautiful examples of how these should look!

[NavyFCO]

Gor:

Thanks for posting the real badges! I haven't paid much attention to these in person, but I can definately see how the first one posted is probably a fake based on yours.

Also, as an aside, IMHO, I have seen the seller of this badge peddle more than a few questionable items, especially cloth such as uniforms and flags, asking "retail plus" for them. As a result, I normally stay away from his stuff. (Also, I'm not fond of sellers on eBay that have more than one user ID. Not only is it against eBay policy, it's really easy for them to have others that they use to bid on their own stuff with!)

Dave

[Riley1965]

You have a great marksman badge collection!! I may have found another addiction!!! LOL

Doc