Pakistani 1965 War Medal Naming ?

[Guest Rick Research]

The Traveling Museum came through town yeterday and--knowing how badly Ed Haynes has "corrupted" my collecting soul--kindly brought me what I am told is a Pakistani medal for the war of 1965.

What I find most interesting is the radical change in design from the previous Britsih Victorian-style General Campaign Medal (though this DOES bear a passing sidewayss glance at the old I.O.M. outline)...and the fact that while those were NOT named on the rim, this one IS named, in tiny letters on back.

Sep(oy?) M. Younis seems an unusual name to me--more like names I've read from Morocco or Algeria?... but what is the "S.R." after his name?

S(omething) R(egiment)?

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Rick,

Correct, what you have is the Istar-i-Herb 1385/1965 War Star for combat service in the 1965 Indo-Pakistani War. The 1971 War Stars are seldom named, I guess they just gave up on that exercise, too bad.

I can't help at this time with the regimental iitials but I'll keep looking through my notes. I really must get my notes organized and stored in my computer.

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

I learn new things every day! Much obliged.

[Ulsterman]

A splendid medal! I must say that you seem to be very fortunate in your gifts! obviously the chap ho gave that to you was both a scholar and a gentleman....heh heh. :)

[Guest Rick Research]

Even if he DID tell me it was for 1971!

[Ulsterman]

His eye sight is not what it was......

[Guest Rick Research]

Having delved deeper into this section, I am more and more confused. The above is an "Istar-i-Herb"-- is this some sort of minor DECORATION? I see in other threads sometimes--not always--these are mounted with "British" style war MEDALS with the same years. So what is with TWO awards-- a staar and a medal--for the same war... when both are mounted in precedence like campaign medals?

[Brian Wolfe]

The Star indicates service in an area under fire while the Medal is for service during the war but not necessarily under fire.

The Star would proceed the medal when worn.

If the soldier served in the British Military before Indian Independence and therefore the Partician (resulting in Pakistan's independence) you will find the Indian or Pakistani Medals worn with the British medals the soldier previously was awarded.

I'll see if I can find some examples to post tomorrow.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Rick,

Here are some examples to show what I was talking about in the above emails.

The first shows a great group where the recipient was in both wars and the two Stars are worn just before the two War Medals.

The best feature of a group with the 1965 War Star is that it is named and therefore the group itself can be attributed to a particular person and regiment.

The Pakistan Independence medals (shown later in this post) are also name so if a group is lacking the 1965 War Star but has the Independence Medal you also know the name of the recipient etc.

In the case of British Medal worn with Pakistani medals the Pakistani medals come first. In this example the group has the India Independence Medal in the last place as it would be in any British India group but with the Pakistan Independence Medal first. The recipient served in the Burma Campaign as can be seen, I only mention this as it is of particular interest to me.

Another example is this swing mounted group of four which shows the recipient was awarded the British Defence Medal, which may indicate he served only in England, as the lack of a campaign medal would suggest he saw no "action".

Finaly I have included this next group to show an unnamed group that has the 1971 War Medal which indicates the recipient served during the War but not in a zone of conflict, or "action". The real reason is that I just like this group and while going through the Pakistan section of the collection it caught me eye. Before you ask, yes, my eye is much better now (though not my sense of humour).

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

Are there only combat stars for 1965 and 1971? I've seen (for around here) a relative "lot" of loose campaign medals (hard to believe our local population of Pakistanis is ditching family awards, but why different than anyone else who don't care?) but that's the first campaign star.

And.... nobody knows what "S. R." was? The Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecret Regiment?

And what about the apparent ethnic (?) oddity of the fellow whose star started all this?

[Brian Wolfe]

These two wars were the only "real" wars between India and Pakistan, the later armed conflicts that occurred were minor skirishes. There was a huge build up along the boarder some years ago with no shots fired. According to what I read the Indain Army lost more soldiers due to accidents while moving such a large army to the boarder than they did during the "real" wars. One would have to assume the same was true of the Pakistani Army as well, though there are no official statements along those lines. They tend to be very security minded about any military information being given out to anyone.

There are more loose medals on the market today than groups and I am assuming that they were either awarded and never court mounted or the dealers in Pakistan (and India) broke up the groups thinking that they would get more for the singles than for a group. A case of not knowing your target market. It could be someone bringing these single medals into the States thinking they will cash in on the medals market, rather than family medals being sold off, another case of misreading the market. I wish someone would start to bring in Orders and Decorations and not just military service medals. Perhaps the GMIC should sponsor an expedition into Pakistan to locate and bring some of these seldom seen O & Ds out. You supply the pith helmets and I'll supply the Canadian Flags for our jackets. I wonder just how well we'd do?

After Pakistan Independence the armed forces created, for whatever reason, many new regiments. You'll find them to a lot of different "occupations" like education corps etc. If we find out what "S.R" stands for I am sure we'll both be saying, "Of course why didn't I think of that?"

I'll ask my contact in Amritsar (Punjab) and see if he has any idea.

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm thinking it might have something to do with the ethnicity of the recipient, which still seems oddly non-local to me. YOUNIS? Certainly not S-ikh, and after that I'm out of guesses... being far afield from my normal patch.

Very oddly (indeed) we never see INDIAN medals hereabouts--and our immigrant community has got to be about the same for both--at least from what I see in my little 4 traffic lights town on The Island. Otherwise I'd be aiming at Both Sides displays to tide me over in the long interludes between Imperial German and anything affordable former Warsaw Pact members.

[Brian Wolfe]

I would think if he were a Sikh then there would have been the title of SIngh, for example the naming would be "YOUNIS SINGH". That is not to say that there is no chance of him being a Sikh as there are a few Sikhs in the Pakistan Army. However the Nation of Pakistan is an Islamic state and therefore it would not be as attractive for a Sikh to join; Sikhism being a religon. As to the chances of the medal referencing the "Sikh Regiment" I'd have to say, "Not a chance" as the Star was for the 1971 War with India and there were no Sikh Regiments in the Pakistan Army at that time. I believe there was talk of proposing a separate Sikh Regiment to the Pakistani Parliment in or around 2005 but I don't believe this was ever done and if it was I don't recall anything about it in happening the news.

It would be my guess he is Islamic even though I would expect the naming to have been "YOUNIS KHAN", be that as it may, Younis is a common enough Islamic name so that is where I would place this.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Rick, Rick Rick, where is my mind today?

It would be the Sindh Regiment which was formed mainly of the Sindu Population of the Punjab region (Nort West India).

Sorry it took so long for this old guy to kick-start his brain.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

By the way Rick, you have 4 traffic stop lights!!!! Wow!

I knew you were a big town boy, here in New Hamburg we have no stop lights.

On Saturday and Sunday there is almost no traffic or cars parked in the town town core, we even shut down the main drag for a couple of days for the annual Mo Par Fest car show.

Now that's a small town.

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

PECCAVI!!!! Doh! Of course!

We're quite cosmopolitan for the exact center of nowhere, with the same population we had 100 years ago--numerically. It was a melting pot then, of classic American type. Now... I dunno.

At least I haven't run into veterans of both sides beating each other up in the (just one) donut shop!

Thanks!

Edited July 21, 2013 by Rick Research

[peter monahan]

In a small town, if you get a wrong number, whoever answers the phone will tell you correct one. In a really small town, they'll tell you whether he's home or not! New Hamburg is a really small town. I know 'cause I went there once on a Sunday, but it was closed!

[Brian Wolfe]

We still talk about the tourist boom of 2010. I had no idea that was you.

Because of your visit the beer store is now open Sunday.

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

And you two guys never get together? Buy an Epson!

[Brian Wolfe]

We have but we were missed in our communities while away. The census had to be adjusted because of the large percentage of residents were missing, and have therefore asked that we give notice before being adsent.

It's like living in the "Shire" and from your location notice, "There...and back again" you must know that when one of the hobbitses are away the others start rumours that an adventure is afoot. And we know how Hobbits hate adventure.

Regards

Brian

I must ask you about this Epson thing some day.

[Guest Rick Research]

The only time anyone "outside" wants me, it's for jury duty--and then for some reason they never pick me. I could be gone DECADES and no one would notice. You'd think on an island with the bridges out half the time, access/egress could be monitored, huh?

Epson is the answer to all questions. There is but One Epson and it Is Epson. (Apparently their marketing people don't do google searches, yeesh. I could be famous on international TV with the dead guy who does amazing mail order laundry detergent. Epson could OWN the planetary market with my endorsements! )

Edited July 30, 2013 by Rick Research

[peter monahan]

Actually, Brian and I have met, once. Left Hobbiton and Hardbottle at dead of night and met at a ... wait for it... gun show! Of course it did make it a touch harder to pick Brian out of the crowd: "Look for a guy with a musket." Right up there with visitors I get at 1812 re-enactments, who are told: "I'll be wearing a red tunic."

And when I got back I got a visit from the neighbourhood hobbit watch. Rumours I was hanging about with DWARVES! Even though Brian is all of 5 feet tall.

But I'm glad to hear about the beer store. I was afraid that plus the feed mill weren't going to be enough to keep old Charlie in hard tack and kerosene, especially after the winter of '09-'10 when the road was closed for all those weeks. I think keeping the beer store open all day on Sunday, even if the rest of the time its by appointment, will improve the economic life of New Hamburg immensely.

Peter [not a hobbit] Monahan

[Do I have too much time on my hands, d'ya think?]

Edited August 1, 2013 by peter monahan

[Guest Rick Research]

It's been too hot, too long. I think my brain is melting.....

[Brian Wolfe]

Peter,

You are always the gentleman, you never even mentioned that I was standing on a chair, and even then the Brown Bess I was holding was well over my height .

Rick,

A lot people this year have had brain melt, the difference is that too many of them let it run out of their mouths.

Needless to say I look up to your both (see first comment).

Regards

Brian

[peter monahan]

And then I looked back at the title of this thread and thought... 'Oh, what's the use. Might as well keep typing.' I blame it all on Rick. The global warming has melted his meds again!