Leutwein Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Hello, I have this interesting photo of a paymaster (or military servant). Unfortunately the medal bar is not so clearly but I assume the following decorations on his bar: KO4 AEZ Red Cross Medal 3rd class prussian lifesaving medal or 1870/71 war-medal (?) China-medal for fighters Centenary-medal Could he be identifiable? Unfortunately I couldn´t find anyone with that combination in the rank lists of 1902, 1904, 1905 and 1908 Nice to see also his rare spiked sun-helmet. I hope you can help me and give him his name back. Best wishes Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Yup-- KO4, AEz, PrRKM3, 70/71, China, 1897. I believe that to be the East Asian Expeditionary forces uniform, army pattern sword.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Back again. Doubt he's a Zahlmeister: no NCO long service brooch. Believe he will turn out to be the sort of Proviant or Garnisonsverwaltung Beamter NOT shown in the annual rank lits because he was an Oberleutnant equivalent and Rank Lists only showed Hauptmann-equivalent up. Must consult Siekmann's Beamten-Taschenkalendar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leutwein Posted July 19, 2013 Author Share Posted July 19, 2013 Yes you´re absolutely right. Missing NCO long service brooch..... ....so he can´t be a paymaster. I attach the shoulderboard of him and I recognize the imperial eagle and a single pip (like an "Oberleutnant" equivalent as you said). Now I´m hoping that Siekmann will give us a match. Best wishes and thanks for helping me Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arb Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I would like to suggest that this could be Lazareth Oberinspektor Mutschall. He was twice attached to the OEK and returned to his previous assignment in Brandenburg a.H. (which happens to be the place the photo was taken!). That said, there is one small problem. The 1908/09 DOA lists his awards as "D70/71 DChM PrKr4 PrAE PrZM" but no Red cross medal. Five of 6 is not too bad, but not 100% conclusive. I'll keep looking to see if he ever got the Red Cross medal. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arb Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) I just confirmed that Mutschall did in fact receive the Red Cross Medal 3. Kl. The 1905 Ordens Liste (page 1482) shows that he received it on 11.10.1899. I wonder why it's not in the DOA? His PKrO4 was awarded on 24.10.1901 and PAEz on 17.09.1887. In June 1913 he received the PRAO4. Also, on 13.08.1909 he received the "Charakter als Rechnungsrat." The 1917 Siekmann, page 345, confirms his Red Cross medal. In this book, he is listed as a Rechnungsrat (dated 31.3.1910) and Lazarett Verwaltungsdirektor in Berlin. Now, we just need a first name. According to the DOA and Siekmann he was born in 1852. Andy Edited July 19, 2013 by arb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Andy, Now, we just need a first name. I can do that. August Mutschall. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arb Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Glenn, Thanks! I just found him in the 1914 Berlin Adreßbuch- he was living in Berlin North at Scharnhorst 14. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Doesn't this look like magic? But it's not. How many hours? How many books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arb Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) In an effort to give the forum members a sense of how a name was put to this photo, and what is behind the effort, I submit the following. The first thing I did was start with the known. He was in the East Asian Expedition Corps. Now, back in the 1990's, I created a database with all the members of the OEK from its creation in July 1900 through 1901. As the basis of this, I used the Militärwochenblatt because it was an official source and it included all the support personnel required to sustain such an effort far from home, to include the lower officials not found in the Rangliste. I also added the awards that these individuals received prior to and during their service with the OEK. Next, I looked for those individuals in my database with one of the awards listed in the initial posting. In this case, the first clue was the PAEz which Mutschall had. Next, I went to the 1904/1905 Deutscher Ordens Almanach and looked up Mutschall, and there he was with 4 of the awards. I then checked the 1908/1909 DOA and saw that he had 5 of the six. But what about the Red Cross Medal? For that, I had to look from the Ordens Liste for mention of the award, and there it was. So, now I confirmed that he had all the awards shown in the photograph. His birth year was given in the DOA. In an effort to further confirm Mutschall was the right man, I went through the "Taschen Kalender für Beamte der Militär Verwaltung" compiled by H. Siekmann (hence the shorthand tile "Siekmann") for the years 1902, 1907 and 1917. Only the 1917 edition showed his Red Cross Medal. Now, for the first time, published verification that he had indeed received that medal. Another vital piece of the puzzle was the location of the studio in which the photo was taken- Brandenburg a.H. Looking at his career using the Militärwochenblatt to track his promotions, transfers and awards, I saw that he was located in Brandenburg! I now was convinced he was the right man. This is another example of why we always ask that when posting a photo include the studio name and location! For a first name, I went to the Berlin address book and found his name, rank and address. However, before I could add it to the posting, Glenn had already provided us with his name. So, it took at least 10 publications, a database created years ago and worked on ever since, a little luck that he lived as long as he did and the patience to put it all together. In the end, it's particularly satisfying to help out a forum member to put a name to a photo, medal/ribbon bar or anything else. I would like to emphasize that information, especially from contemporary and official sources, is essential. The more information you have, the more likely your chances for a successful identification. Trust me when I say this is much easier said than done. I've been collecting books, creating and expanding databases since 1993. It's taken years to find the books, more than a few dollars, German Marks, Euros, British pounds, Austrian Schillings and even Czech Crowns to purchase them; untold hours of work on the databases and years of learning how to interpret all this information (both literally and figuratively speaking) to be in a position to solve this little mystery. The last point I'd like to make is that this is all great fun, and that's why I enjoy this as much as I do. It's an interesting challenge and it provides a measure of satisfaction not to be found anywhere else. So, keep the questions coming. Andy Edited July 19, 2013 by arb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Bravo Andy, My sentiments exactly. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leutwein Posted July 19, 2013 Author Share Posted July 19, 2013 Thanks a lot for your help. Especially to Andy. Now I could find out that Mutschall served as a "Feldlazarett-Inspektor" in "Lazareth-Reservedepot" of the OEK. I can imagine that all of you invest many hours and money to get that knowledge for research work. I´m still working for my personally research data base By now I´m writing down all the important informations from DKB (Deutsches Kolonialblatt) and have finished those volumes (1900-1903) of the MWB (Militär-Wochenblatt) which are important for the boxer-rebellion. Sure those are only secondary sources and not complete ....but I´m still working to receive those primary sources for my research work . Unfortunately it´s not so easy to get those primary sources but I´m still young and one day I´ll finish my personally data base. By now it is possilbe for me to identify active officers (army and naval) and enlisted men/NCO´s with unique colonial medal bars. Impossible for me are retired officers like Korvettenkapitän der Reserve von Veltheim or military servants like Feldlazarett-Inspektor Mutschall. But in this case I have learnt which sources ("Taschen Kalender für Beamte der Militär Verwaltung") are also important for my research work. One more book on my large shopping list But like andy I´m also enjoying to identify unknown soldiers, medal and ribbon bars (with colonial and China connection) but in my case I do not own a data base like you have. So thanks a lot for your help and it´s great to put a name back to an unknown soldier. The next days I will open some threads where I will post my few personally results of research work. But as andy said: "So, keep the questions coming." I have two another soldier with exotic colonial medal bars. One of them had MMVK2 for China and the swedish medal of wasa and my list of recipients for the MMVK 2 is uncomplete and I do not own a list of recipients for the swedish medal of wasa but I think he should be identifiable. And the other one is a bavarian veteran who had the combination of bavarian MVK2x and a british medal but with the same problem like the other (bavarian list uncomplete and without a name it is difficult to find out a german recipient of the english medal). Thanks a lot again. Best wishes Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) There is something of Inspector Javert in all Research Gnomes. These things keep us awake at night because we HAVE to know. There must be a clinical name for this condition... something obsessive-compulsive caused by having a missing jigsaw puzzle piece in a Christmas present as a child, or being repressed secret policemen or something. "Famous" types and "celebrities" are absurdly easy. We're not interested in THEM. Mere mortals like the previously forgotten August Mutschall are a very satisfying challenge. It's difficult to "explain" to a non-R.G., but in a way it is exhilarating. We have the "power" to make an obscure Beamter as "immortal" as an Egyptin pharaoh....without any whips or lashes. Well, not MANY. Andy's explanation of how we come up with our magically "speedy" answers is spot on. Some of the questions were answered decades ago... just waiting for somebody to ask the right question! Being ABLE to answer them makes all that effort worthwhile. I can only echo: keep 'em coming folks! Edited July 19, 2013 by Rick Research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Krause Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Andy, Rick, Glenn, I fully agree with you! :-) lots of greetings and lets keep them coming :-) Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I´m always deeply impressed by the research done here in this forum!! Does anybody know, if there do exist lists of the Gendarmes (NCO equivalents) of the prussian Gendarmerie Brigaden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 With the exception of award rolls, I know of no listing for non-commissioned ranks of ANY German uniformed or civil service or Party formation... ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Ok, sorry to hear that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) That's why we CAN do officers... and with more sweat and effort, obscure low ranking administrative officer-equivalents. Even the civilian Hof- und Staatshandbücher drop out at about the paygrade of = Hauptmann, unless in an award list or table-napkin-cleaner to S.K.H. Hofetat types. We've got to have award combinations to work from. Nothing worse than just a face with an overcoat!!!! Edited July 21, 2013 by Rick Research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now