Japan German medal bar with 8th Class Sacred Treasure

[wws_raga]

Good evening.

Could be such combination Awards?

[wws_raga]

[wws_raga]

[JapanX]

Hi Vladimir,

the probability is close to zero

Cheers,

Nick

[wws_raga]

Hi, Nick!

Why?

[wws_raga]

Ribbon old style.

Perhaps, he received 7th Sacred Treasure before World War I?

Then medal lying in a case, because Japan was an enemy of Germany.

Maybe it was the feldvebel-lieutenant in World War I?
KVK with swords or without during the Second World War

Them and in the rear giving, for example for difference during bombings.

Bar with medals collected in the early 40's.,when Japan was an ally

It would be desirable hear the opinions of other people.

[JapanX]

It looks to me that we are talking about dude who spent at least 25 years (according to his bar) in service.

On the other hand we have 8th class sacred treasure that looks like Showa piece (!!!)

When he got this 8th class?

During WWI?

Impossible!

Later?!

But what rank he could held "later"?

For 8th class he should be private, schoolteacher, patrol policeman or your postmen.

If we are talking about super looser, then next question will be (of course rhetorical one): why Empire of Japan decided to award 8th class sacred treasure to your usual german schoolteacher/private/policeman/etc... ?!

P.S. I guess no provenance for this bar either?

[JapanX]

It would be desirable hear the opinions of other people.

Definitely! ;)

[Brian Wolfe]

Please note, this post has been moved from the miniature section to better maintain continuity.

Regards

Brian

[wws_raga]

".....who spent at least 25 years (according to his bar) in service."

According to his bar, There hangs a cross for 15 years of service (Treue Dienst für 15 Jahre)

[JapanX]

EK 2 1914 + KVK2 with date 1939 on reverse

According to his bar

More correctly will be "according to the seller description of the bar"

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Ordensspange-Preusen-Japan-/141120390254?pt=Militaria&hash=item20db6e446e

Happy bidding Vladimir!

[JapanX]

Btw, I wonder how seller can be sure that this treasure is 7th class treasure

"Orden des Geheiligten Schatzes und des heiligen Spiegels, 7.Klasse"

By golden patina around central mirror?

But we know that such patina can easily be found on 8th classes ...

[dond]

He is "sure" because he is sure a 7th class should bring more money.

[JapanX]

Yep

[JapanX]

Hmmm

No opinions from "other people" ...

Well, let's once again consider all possible scenarios.

I think we can safely dismiss Boxer Rebellion.

Same goes for WWI since Germany and Japan were in a state of war.

This left us with only one possibility for this 8th (7th?) class sacred treasure - late20s/30s.

So let's say he was a private/NCO during WWI.

Then he was "reactivated" in 30s.

All of the sudden - сabbom - he is getting encouragement from his japanese comrades in the form of 8th/7th class of sacred treasure!

But for what?!

For "strengthening the friendship" between Reich and Empire of Japan as NCO?

But with such rank it's hard to "strength" anything (to say nothing about being noticed by Empire of Japan)

If he was an officer by this time, then I think he should get higher class of sacred treasure..

Now about this treasure.

As I said earlier this order looks like Showa piece to me (although without reverse it's hard to be sure)

But ribbon doesn't belong to Showa.

It looks like it came from earlier time period (Meiji/early Taisho)

Another strange inconsistency...

P.S. Btw, it was sold today for €88...

[Chris Boonzaier]

"So let's say he was a private/NCO during WWI.
Then he was "reactivated" in 30s."

Why would he have to be reactivated in the 1930s? This could be a man who left the Army in 1918 and never put a uniform on again.

He could have been an embassy driver, watchman or cook in the 1920s or 30s ?

[JapanX]

Why would he have to be reactivated in the 1930s?

Interesting question especially in light of "Let's say"

Why wouldn't he?

Certainly no less realistic scenario than "embassy cook, driver or watchmen".

But let's say he was an embassy driver.

Or cook.

Or watchman.

How long it would take for embassy driver to get 7th/8th grade of sacred treasure (since it is indeed could be a longevity award)

I'd say 20+ years (that is if we apply japanese criterion for awarding japanese citizens with this order)

This could be a man who left the Army in 1918 and never put a uniform on again.

But what about his cross Treue Dienst?

He spent all these years in service before 1918?

P.S. Personally I saw lower class of sacred treasure awarded to foreigner only once. It was group of awards of Private G.C. Hogbin, 1st batallion, Scots Guards. He was presented with 7th class in 1918 while serving as servant to Lieutenant General Pultney (organizer of 1918 "mission to Japan"). His group of 7 was sold for 1600 GBP. If anybody interested I'll post photo of his group in a couple of days.

[utopis]

Seems unlikely that he served in the 20s or 30s otherwise there would be a Nazi long service award. But with the 20 years criteria for an 8th class treasure its unlikely that this bar is untouched. Another thing: the hook for the sacred treasure is broken off... A damaged unspectacular bar with the last medal missing. So, what to do if one wants to sell it for good money ....

P.S. Btw, it was sold today for €88...

Why sold? The auction still goes one day

[JapanX]

If I remember correctly III Reich longevity awards were introduced only on March 16, 1936.

P.S. Indeed the auction is still on! Sorry for that!

And the price is already €100 ;)

[pieter1012]

the seller writes that the hook for attaching the Sacred Treasure is missing, so there is no certainty that the original order was a 7th or 8th class Sacred Treasure. it could well have been a 6th or 5th class which got detached and replaced later by someone else with a (cheaper) 7th or 8th class. The bar must have been made up after 1939 because of the presence of the War Merit Cross. The ribbon of the Sacred Treasure looks indeed like a Meiji/Taisho era one like Nick indicates, but perhaps the tailor still had old ribbon in stock from that period. In 1940 the Japanese Foreign Minister Matsuoka made an official visit to Berlin to sign the Tripartite Alliance and at that time many German officials received Japanese orders. Could it be that the owner of the bar was in some way involved with this visit and received the Sacred Treasure 5th or 6th class? He could have been working at the German Foreign Ministry, second secretary rank would get a 5th class Sacred Treasure. In that case the War Merit cross (perhaps received from the German government for work done for the Japanese visit?) must have been without swords.

Just some thoughts from my side.

Pieter

[Rogi]

The only problem is that the bar has a 7th or 8th on it, and you're making a huge stipulation that there was something higher than that on the bar. Whatever it was on there might not be there any more, now there is a 7th or 8th on there, if that's what you like then go for it

Plus I could go digging in a list in the archives to find his visit documents, but unless this is 100% sure that this ribbon was like that (ie a 5th, 6th slips out of that ribbon) I'm not sure it would be well worth the time to look

I'll take a look if you want

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rogi

[JapanX]

Sold for €150 ...

I'd say "fair price"

[dond]

Perhaps a calculated buy based upon this thread here.

[pieter1012]

Rogi,

as I wrote already, just some thoughts from my side, no stipulations or anything. No need to look further into it.

Pieter

[JapanX]

Tell you the truth guys, I think time period from which this 7th/8th class treasure came from is the key (or at least one of the keys...)

If this piece came from Meiji/Taisho epoch, then this medal bar undoubtedly was doctored.

If this piece belongs to Showa epoch, then there is still hope (although pretty delusive one) that this bar is original.

All we have is ribbon with very unusual coloring + photo of obverse.

Unfortunately

a) it's hard to date two lower classes of treasures only by obverse

b) I don't think that this ribbon was manufactured in Japan

I'll try to illustrate my points a) and b) tomorrow.