Bundesrepublik Bundeswehr Oberst's Dress Jacket?

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

Found today, liked the arm badge so bought it.

Dinner place name card found in pocket.

Pips removed from shoulder boards?

Otherwise fine!

Jock

[The Prussian]

Hi Jock!

Yes, the oficer´s stars are missing... The card says Oberstleutnant (Lt.Col.), so two stars are missing The card also says i.G. ("im Generalstab" - general-staff)

The yellow colour around the shoulder-boards and the Litzen shows us, that he served with Panzeraufklärer (Armoured Reconnaissance).

The upper-arm patch shows his duty in the "Streitkräfteamt" (Zentrale Militärische Dienststellen) ~ Armed forced office (central military departements)

IF he was in the general-staff, he should have a generals-staff education. But then he wouldn´t have his yellow colours, but the pink colours, worn by the general-staff.

Edited June 14, 2014 by The Prussian

[Jock Auld]

Sorry, Yes it is a Brit thing to simply say 'The Colonel' we tend to emphisise the other way like saying hes a 'full Colonel', probably due to the fact most Regimental Commanders are Lt col and you rarely seen a full one around.

Do you think the card is a type error or is the combination acceptable?

Cheers

Jock

[The Prussian]

Hi Jock!

I don´t know much about the duties of BW Officers (I used to be Obergefreiter only...)

As far as I know, if the card belomngs to the uniform, he might have worn the pink colours. But I´ll ask a friend of mine, he knows a lot of Bundeswehr. Maybe he can have a look about his name.

[speedytop]

Hi,

it is a little bit difficult. If he had the complete general staff education/training (2 years), he had to change sometimes the colour on his uniform.

Serving in a position with the addition "i.G.", e.g. Oberstleutnant i.G., he had to wear the crimson (karmesinroten) collar tabs and piping.

Serving for example as a battalion commander (Oberstleutnant), he had to wear his "original" colour, here as Panzeraufklärer.

But it can be, that an officer without the general staff training have to serve on a position (Planstelle) with the addition "i.G.". Then he have to wear the crimson colour too.

Uwe

Edited June 14, 2014 by speedytop

[Paul R]

Is the "i.G." a permanent title once obtained? If so, could he have been in the General Staff and an earlier posting, returning to a recon unit after his time with the General Staff was over? How difficult is it to find old pips to replace the ones missing?

Since you have a name, how difficult is it to do further research on this officer? He may have had WW2 time?

[The Prussian]

My friend told me, that "i.G." is not part of the rank, but just a duty. So during his time as i.G. he had to wear the crimson colours (I meant crimson, when I wrote pink...).

If he came back to his unit, he had to change into yellow again.

The problem is, the BW didn´t publish any Ranglisten. We might know, inj which period he served. I checked a book about the 11th Panzergrenadier-Division. There is a Rangliste from 1956-1987 just for this division. But I didn´t find a "Halle" in the Panzeraufklärungs-Units of that division.

In the cold war (when I served four years 1987-1991), there were 11 Panzeraufklärungs-Bataillone in the 11 divisions. So 11 Oberstleutnants. Hard to find him...

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

Thanks for the info.

Jock

[The Prussian]

I´ve found another thing. The armpatch also was worn from members of military schools. This yellow colour was worn by reconnaissance troops. (armoured AND paras)

Members of the Long Range Reconnaisssance school also wore this constellation!

BUT in this case the Para-badge is missing...

[Jock Auld]

We do have the Panzer School at Munster, they, I presume have or had a Recce aspect to their cariculum.

I have had a close look and it appears to be unmessed with except for the missing pips on the shoulder boards, perhaps he used them on a new jacket?

It looks as if it was always this colour, maybe the name place tag is not his and he removed it from the table for a guest as this is the tradition in British messes if you are hosting a guest as some-one else may take it and write a rude/witty comment on it and it is then read out by the Presiding Member or the PMC at a suitable pause in the event.

Just guessing but I doubt we will learn more, just one of them things.

Thanks for all of the info.

Cheers

jock

[The Prussian]

By the way, here´s the ZDv 37/10 about uniforms

http://www.dmb-lv-westfalen.de/z1.pdf

[Jock Auld]

Thank you for the link I have saved that to disc.

Cheers

Jock

[Paul R]

Great information everyone. Thank you for sharing.

[The Prussian]

Please note, that the ZDv was published in 2008. My information about the schools came from the ZDv from 1982

Edited June 17, 2014 by The Prussian

[Gordon Craig]

Jock,

Numerous comments here that may lead one astray. The Prussian is correct in post #2 when he said the verbandsabzeichen on this uniform indicates the wearer was serving in the Zentral Militarische Dienstaellen. (ZMilDBw) This term is no longer in use. The ZMilDBw was under the direct command of the Deputy Inspector General of the Bundeswehr. At times it has also had the title of "Staff of the Central Military Departments of the Federal Armed Forces". (I've used English here to simplify things). As an officer serving in the ZMilDBw he would not have been assigned to a specific unit.

If the card in the pocket of this tunic belonged to the oberstleutnant who wore it he probably had a general staff position before his posting to ZMilDBw. When he left his i. G. position he would have taken down the i. G. insignia and reverted to the arm of colour of his normal occupation. The term used on the card may simply have been done out of courtesy to his training.

While we are at it we should discuss the specific collar tabs and shoulder boards worn by an officer serving in a General Staff position. They were of a different design to that of the normal collar tabs. Rather than explain the difference I have posted pictures below of an officers tunic serving on the General Staff of the 2. Panzergrenadierdivision.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Jock,

Something that I forgot. It is difficult to tell from your pictures what size oak leaves are on the shoulder boards of your tunic. There were two different sizes and I've illustrated this below. The early larger oak leaves were worn with a 19mm star. (measured diagonally across the points of the star) The later, smaller, oak leaves were worn with a 17mm star. You can find the different sizes worn together so it is not all that big a problem if you put 17mm stars on the earlier oak leaves.

Regards,

Gordon

[Jock Auld]

Gordon,

Thanks for the extra detail, that is a nice looking arm patch on yours too, mine is almost 3d in appearance as the eagle stands out from the background yours looks similar, very well made!

If the appointmen/term is no longer used when would the jacket date from in your opinion, 70s 80s?

Cheers

jock

[Jock Auld]

Gordon,

Its the 40mm oaks.

Jock

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

Went back for the police jackets and he threw in these two others from the same bloke. his rain jacket I presume private purchase.

Jock