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Hi Andreas,

can you date my GH from the pics?

Thanks

Chris

Hello Chris,

it is a Hemmerle with golden medaillons from 1915/1916.

Can you read the number on the agraffe 950 or 980.

Cheers Andreas

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This is about WW1 era 4th classes only, right? Some others are even better... ;o)

While they're all nice, I find those with gold medaillons to be so much more beautiful than their gilt brothers.

Even when damaged, they are a certain league...

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  • 7 years later...
On 01/08/2014 at 16:38, Chris Boonzaier said:

Up the ante Sascha.... show some "old stuff" !

Unfortunately I don't have and never had a "colonial" one.

 

:(

 

Maybe someone else has one to share? I'd love to see!

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BTW, it is an MVO 3 Klasse, even though the box says 4 Klasse.

 

The sword tip is stamped 900

The Agraffe is stamped W&S 950

The framing of the bottom cross-arm is wider than the other framings

 

And some of the gold coating is still visible

 

Regards

v.Perlet

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5 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

BTW, it is an MVO 3 Klasse, even though the box says 4 Klasse.

Unfortunately, it's not, or at least not an authentic one. Weiss & Cie. were no makers of gilt 3rd class crosses. These came from Gebr. Hemmerle, Munich, and Jacob Leser, Straubing, only. We do have some good older threads on this topic here that you might enjoy reading!

 

By the way, what you're seeing as "gold coating" looks like a golden patina to me. Thus, the reverse is silver only. However, there are tons of gilt crosses around, but that has been done for decades just to deceive collectors. I'm sorry for the bad news and hope you didn't overpay this otherwise fine piece!

 

:(

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Hello sachaw,

 

for the moment I would disagree with your assessment - which is based only on the issue that W&S did not manufacture MVO 3 Klasse. Would you have a link to where and who says so?

 

I bought it some 20 years ago, and it was offered as an MVO 4.Klasse.

Maybe it is an MVO 4.Klasse - which would be fine with me.

 

However;

The bottom crossarm frame is wider then the others - clearly thee distinctive sign for an MVO 3.Klasse

It is made of silver and I assume due to the visible residue, that it was gold plated/coated.

The stamps 900 sword, and 950 for the Agraffe are correct.

 

There are 2 versions of the MVO 3 Klasse, 1. being in gold, and 2. being silver and gold plated/coated

 

Most convincing to me is that the weight of my MVO is 26.7g - according to several auction houses and literature

the weight for an MVO 3.Klasse with  swords is given as 26.5g

A MVO 4. Klasse with swords only weighs 21.5g

 

So I can't see a way that someone took e.g. a MVO 4 and converted it via whatever to a Klasse 3.

 

So lets see what it turns out to be. 😉

 

Regards

v.Perlet

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19 minutes ago, v.Perlet said:

(...) W&S did not manufacture MVO 3 Klasse. Would you have a link to where and who says so?

No link, but a recommended reading of Zimmermann, Sascha. Zur besseren Unterscheidung von den echt goldenen… – Der Bayerische Militär-Verdienstorden 3. Klasse in seiner letzten Form vom 1. Januar 1917. In: Das Dritte und Vierte Gunzenhäuser Phaleristik-Symposium. Vorträge und Presseberichte. Offenbach a. M. 2000. S. 90–98. Unfortunately, this is available in German only, and, as said, not online. Zimmermann based his work on his evaluation of Munich archives.

 

 

19 minutes ago, v.Perlet said:

However;

The bottom crossarm frame is wider then the others - clearly thee distinctive sign for an MVO 3.Klasse

It seems you did misunderstand something here. That wider frame is the distinctive sign for pieces with gilt centers, as they were awarded from 1917 on - all classes, including the MVK 1st class to NCOs!

 

Probably every information you could be looking for can be found here:

 

Edited by saschaw
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Hello sashaw,

 

my God what a terrible/confusing thread. 80% is about MVK's and not MVO's

and many times MVO's are referred to as MVK's.

 

But W&C did probably manufacture MVO's 3 Klasse, since there are even MVO's 2 Klasse by W&C on this thread.

 

The issue in regards to an original MVO 3. Klasse seems to be solely the issue of the flames.

MVO's 4 Klasse, the flames and cross-body are cast in one piece, whilst on an MVO 3. Klasse

they are cast/attached seperatly. (Gap between flames and cross-body frame)

 

If this should be correct, my MVO would indeed be a MVO 4.Klasse - which is fine by me😀

 

Regards

v.Perlet

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Hi there, the awarded Bavarian MVO were made by three jewelers, Hemmerle (GH), Leser (JL) and Weiss (WCo). The Godet company has also sold MVO's, but these are only private copies that have not been loaned out. Not every jeweler has made every class, so to my knowledge Weiss has only made 2nd classes and 4th classes of the MVO. The flames from the third class were made hollow and used separately. In the fourth class, the flames have been cast together with the body of the cross. The third class crosses are lighter than the fourth class because the flames are hollow.

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This MVO 3 Klasse was auctioned of and the maker is W&C

So again I have not seen or received any valid proof, that W&C would not have manufactured MVO's 3 Klasse.

Just stating so doesn't make it a proven fact.

 

The same applies towards the statement that original MVO's 3. Klasse have separately attached flames.

The below sample doesn't show this either. Nor (doesn't mean I am correct) have I ever seen or held an MVO 3.Klasse in my hands that had these "separate" flames.

 

The more photos that could be supplied towards this issue (separate flames)- the better to judge upon this thread of being actually professional and not just assumptive.

 

This thread should be about as to how to identify an MVO 3. Klasse and not as to what is my collectable - which is to 80% an MVO 4 Klasse - with a forwarded probability by me of maybe being a Klasse 3.

 

 

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Bayern - Militärverdienstorden MVO 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern Silber vergoldet, mit Hersteller W.Co 900, sehr guter Zustand..jpg

Edited by v.Perlet
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The problem with many Imperial awards is the lack of literature. We've been waiting for years for the book by Sascha Zimmermann, who has been working through these awards for around 25 years, with award numbers and returned pieces. He knows the contracts between the manufacturers and the order's office. He also confirmed the separate flames at a collectors symposium. Of the 3rd class X, 915 were awarded, 237 of which were returned. I owe you the written proof of the separate flames, but I have been active in this special topic for 15 years and in exchange with other collectors. The fact that the 3rd Class Krone Swords shown was sold at auction does not make it any more original. It's very easy for a counterfeiter to re-gilt a fourth grade and sell it for five times the price. Here is my 3rd class crown swords, which was built from a knight 2 by Hemmerle. Many of the awarded golden 3rd classes were built up from returned knight's crosses. The other pictures are from my second class silver guilt of the manufacturer Weiss, also separate flames.

MVO_3a_GH_Ritter2_umgebaut (2).JPG

MVO_3a_GH_Ritter2_umgebaut (1).JPG

Spoleis_MVO_2 (8).JPG

Spoleis_MVO_2 (1).JPG

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