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Very nice, the grey paint almost looks like primer but it is hard to say when not in the hand. Does it appear to have been on there a long time?

Still very nice either way Paul. i have two great war brodies, one in nearly mint condition, the other a relic shell only.

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Nice helmets and WWI for sure, however, I don't think they are true Brodies as they lacked the rim ring which appeared shortly after the true Brodie, yours has the later rim ring. The term Brodie "stuck" but the later issues were actually made as "Marks".

I do stand to be corrected on this point.

Thanks for posting them.

Regards

Brian

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It is odd that to some (and I used to think this) the use of the term Brodie is only applied to the rimless versions, though as Paul mentions the MKI's actually have the Brodie name inside the lining which must mean they should be considered as Brodies. Perhaps only the later versions, MKI* and MKII's should not be considered to be Brodies.

Here are my two WWI examples.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-17018-0-83053600-1415392620.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-17018-0-51127900-1415392597.jpg

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Ah, the world of helmets....

Without going into too much detail and not getting into liners and manufacturers - pretty easily found if Googled (the maker's mark is stamped in the rim)

The French were the first to introduce the helmet to front line troops with the Adrian M15 - there's a picture of Churchill wearing one in the trenches (and we all know he liked to be protected). The obvious protection to the troops from head wounds caused by shrapnel had the British looking around for their own.

A Mr John Brodie, who worked for the Army and Navy stores in London came up with a much simpler design. The Army and Navy were the suppliers of almost anything military, go have a look at some of their sales catalogues from the Victorian era. As the design was simpler to manufacture, stronger and all round just better than the fireman's based French one and also as it was based on the 11th-14th century kettle helmet that mashed the froggies while they played at home. This was the design adopted in late 1915 as the War Office Pattern Brodie.

The original Type A Brodie, made from mild steel, went into manufacture but only 4,400 were ever made over a few weeks. A metal guru, Sir Bob Hadfield, proposed a better steel that was part manganese. This was called mangalloy which was used to manufacture the Type B Brodie from October 1915. Both Type A and Type B are rimless or have a raw edge (like the WW2 German M42). The Type B is non-magnetic.

The raw edge was seen as dangerous in itself and the helmets were pretty uncomfortable so a redesign took place. The Helmet Steel MkI with the added rim started manufacture in 1916 and was used through to the mid 1930s in Britain, much later elsewhere such as Belgium and Israel. Those in use or in stores were refurbished with a new liner and chin strap and allocated the MKI* (mark one star) name which is when the bolt fixed liner replaced the rivet in the crown of the helmet.

Later helmets are all mostly stamped with date and manufacturer on the rim by the chin strap bale, these are known as MKIIs.

I'm sure there's an even greater depth of detail but that's all i can hold in my head. All helmets of this shape and form are known as Brodie helmets - even the ones manufactured abroad. The real beardy types, anoraks and train spotters would only consider the type A and B as true Brodies.

By the by, not all MKIIs are British or even issued to troops. Ones with three holes drilled over the ears on each side didn't pass quality control so were issued to tea ladies. Ones with three holes drilled around the rear rim were manufactured in South Africa, likely for a neck shade (although some say for a camo netting over the face) and ones with brown liners are not British but more than likely Belgium manufacture from the 50s.

Edited by Spasm
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My Brodies are cop ones .......................... both WW1 and WW2 types.

Very nice Robin. I also have a cop one, WWII.

I also have Warden,

National Fire Service,

Home Guards,

Army issued to a member of the RWF

and some others one which is probably Boy Scouts

Another homeguard or Ambulance

And another Army that has seen better days

Edited by Jerry B
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I tend to use the Tommy helmet to refer to all types and I would not usually use the term Brodie when talking about WWII examples, but it is not something that bugs me when others do.

A lot of people do tend to get their knickers in a twist when the MKII is referred to as a Brodie, I'm glad you don't Jerry. I can't get out of the habit of saying MKII Brodie but am trying.

I have a bit of a thing for steel helmets and now have about 4 MKI examples having sold two recently, one of the four I still have has a repair to the chinstrap, it's been fixed up with a German helmet liner rivet but I have no idea if Fritz picked it up off the battlefield in March 1918, took it home on leave as a souvenir and fixed the strap or if someone repaired it with a rusty old liner rivet a few years ago. I also have plenty of Adrians knocking about.

Here's a good book to download if you haven't already done so https://archive.org/stream/helmetsbodyarmor00dean#page/n9/mode/2up

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All joking aside, and I assume we are joking in regard to “beardy types, anoraks and train spotters”, facts are facts my friends and only those helmets made early on, that is to say the rimless variety are true brodies. All helmets after that went by MK.I, Mk.II etc.

I suppose in the big picture all British helmets might as well be called brodies after all is there a difference between a gun and a rifle, a rifle and a musket, or a Tommy and a Doughboy (especially if spelled “Doebuoy”)?

Calling a Memorial Plaque a Death Penny can also get me ranting. I’m not obsessive, it’s just that everything must be in neat rows, and correctly labeled. That’s why I hate cats, you just can’t get them to stay in neat rows and they keep removing those sticky labels from their foreheads!!! :catjava:

Seriously, a great post with a lot of very interesting information.

Thanks everyone...I have to go now I think I hear a train coming. :rolleyes:

Regards

Brian

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Well strictly speaking as far as I understand it the rimless types were known as war office pattern type A & B, not brodies at all, perhaps I am wrong. As Paul mentioned above, if the early MKI's have Brodie helmet on the liner, then how can anyone claim they are not Brodies?

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Well strictly speaking as far as I understand it the rimless types were known as war office pattern type A & B, not brodies at all, perhaps I am wrong. As Paul mentioned above, if the early MKI's have Brodie helmet on the liner, then how can anyone claim they are not Brodies?

It was common enough to use up current stocks if they fit a newer design, at least until the new, in this case liners, were produced in quantities large enough to meet the demand. If one of the later WWII "turtle shell" helmets were fitted with the WWI liner because there were not enough liners for the new heimet then from your reasoning they too would be brodies...D-Day Brodies. ;) Of course this would indeed be a rare collectable.

I don't think the A & B ever when into general use and the thrid "pattern", called the brodie, afer its inventor, first came out in 1915 and had a sharp rim (no rolled piece around the rim). Due to complaints about safety the helmet was redesigned and issued as the Mk.I in 1916. I don't believe the term "brodie" was ever an official name so it was not the MK.I Brodie (1916). The first brodies were not made in qualtities to be issued right away and became Trench Stores and when a soldier left the trenches he left the helmet behind for his replacement to use. In 1916 the Mk.I was produced in qualtities large enough to be issued to all troops.

Facts are facts my friends and do not change unlike memories, especially with the passing of time, so I stand to be corrected.

Regards

Brian

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Certainly on the one point I would agree, I don't think that any of them were ever known as Brodies at the time and the term only came into use later, the early were war office pattern type A & B, the later helmet steel MKI etc....

As I mentioned above, I tend to use the term Tommy Helmet as then everyone knows to what I refer. As regards the liners, you are incorrect, the Brodie marked liners were a new issue for the later WWI versions as they are quire different to that seen on the early patterns so they cannot be reused old stock.

Obviously your facts appear to be different to my facts, but as you say facts are facts.

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I believed Mr Brodie held a patent for his design of helmet so I went to have a gander at the patents listed under his name.

He has 11 listed - 5 are for various methods in distilling and manufacturing salt and 6 related to protective headgear and improvements to said items

Improvements to Mosquito nets, dated 8 Apr 1915, sketch shown below is for a net impregnated with a solution to "drive off, or kill insects" that fits over a hat, cap or bandaged head.

The helmet improvements, shown below, are dated 16 Aug 1915 and 19 Nov 1917, one of them - (the removable shell) includes "the shell is coloured to make them less visible". Note how similar one of them is to the prototype US helmet shown in Tony's book above.

The last two, which have no drawings, are dated 16 Aug 1915 in France for "Casque ou bouclier pour la tete" (Helmet or shield for the head) and 27 June 1916 in the US for "Helmet or head shield"

There doesn't seem to be one for the actual Type A helmet.

Is this why the US had the Doughboy, oops I meant Doebouy (sorry Brian I always thought it was Doughboy after that Pillsbury advert), while France kept the Adrian and is the actual patent for the original helmet gone due to Britain producing the MkI. ?

Edited by Spasm
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I would imagine he still held the patent even though the government made changes and renamed the helmet the Mk.I and so on. The original helmet submitted to the War Department would have been "sealed" upon acceptance and necessary changes made as needed. Even today, with other products, I doubt the rim application on the brodie helmet making it the Mk.I would have constituded enough of a change to void the patent or create new one.

Perhaps it is the collectors who have decided to separate the pre Mk.I from the earlier brodie helmet by deeming the pre Mk.I "Brodie". Not sure about that point.

Ha ha, yes "Doughboy" is correct, I was just being a "pill" putting doe (a deer, a female deer- now I can't get that song out of my mind) and buoy (a naval marker) together. Ok, not funny.

Regards

Brian

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Ah, ok. Which is probably why the original patent isn't available then as it became war stuff and not available to any Tom, Dick or Harry. I expect, then, that Mr Brodie became pretty well off, or maybe the Army and Navy stores? No wonder they are still in Victoria Street.

It's in my head now too...........a long long way to go

Edited by Spasm
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I am still happy to respond to any term that anyone cares to use, Brodies, Tommy, MKI et al........

I know a lot of the terms we as collectors use did not exist at the time and were invented by us and our predecessors, and to be honest in this case I do not know the truth and I am not sure it really matters as all concerned seem to know to what we are referring when using any of the above terms.

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Hi Jerry,

I agree with you 100%. I think that almost every collector in the world knows the British helmet by the term brodie and really that should be the main point. I do like the correct terminology to at least be known and with that in mind if you or any other member runs onto any documentation that would shed light on this point please let the members know, as will I.

Regards

Brian

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Hi Tony,

Thanks for this information, now is the type "D" also the Mk.I? I suspect that since the date of the document is late 1915 this could be the model just before the Mk.I, which came out in 1916. Any thoughts?

Regards

Brian

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