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The membership are not obligated to reply to anyone. I should have made it clear that I was talking about the Moderators -

who do have a reponsibility to see that questions are answered to the best of our ability. Mervyn

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The membership are not obligated to reply to anyone. I should have made it clear that I was talking about the Moderators -

who do have a reponsibility to see that questions are answered to the best of our ability. Mervyn

Just to add to Mervyn's statement, in agreement, it is indeed a responsibility for Mederators to respond when they can but of course it is not necessarily manditory.

There is little worse than posting a question and being ignored, it has happened to all of us from time to time. Additng to this, if you feel a member is just "using" the forum and the membership, the best way to send a message is to not respond to the post.

As several members, including me, have expressed their opposition to giving a valuation, I think that the best manner of providing a market value is through a PM and not on the general forum. This keeps the opinion private and will not be seen as an appraisal but the GMIC as an organization, especially when provided by a moderator.

A value serves no purpose when it comes to historic value and if one is collecting for profit, or collecting even as an investmen, it is a business venture. Sending a PM is not like asking for an email to be sent; the sender need not know any further information about the person being reponded to than is offered through the forum. For the most part a little investigation by the owner of the item on the internet should provide the market value information being asked for.

Regards

Brian

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I can't comment on the construction or age of the drum, except to agree that it's palpable antiquity is almost too convincing.

As for the artwork, I am 100% convinced that is the product of a theatrical art department or similar. The brushwork on the thistles and crown is too impressionistic, that is, intended to look convincing from a distance. That is not how designers and craftsmen worked in the pre-petrochemical age.

If this is artefact is in some way meant to be associated with the House of Atholl, one only has to look at the actual arms of the Duke of Atholl, quartered almost out of all existence, and it isn't hard to see why a designer might have decided that it was too much work to reproduce something that just wouldn't ' read' from a distance and so went for a monogram instead. My guess is 1900-1950- give or take ten years.

PS Here are links to a genuine mid-C18th monogram of the Duke of Atholl:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1758-isle-man-duke-atholl-2d-half-281783151

http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/239925

Edited by jf42
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more pics arrived of offending drumhttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-60348100-1420483213.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-55724900-1420483229.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-43242200-1420483250.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-08220300-1420483280.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-80340200-1420483302.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-09224900-1420483324.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-15070400-1420483344.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-10499-0-61001700-1420483366.jpg

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As someone with a lifelong interest in old musical instruments, this is an intriguing item .I like j42's "palpable antiquity ".

If it's a fake , it's been done by someone with a pretty deep knowledge.

While I can only judge from the photos, the shell appears to have been made from a single slice of wood. All wooden drums since the 19c century have been made from plywiood because of the extreme difficulty of getting a slice of self-wood big enough to form a shell, and because forming it from plywood is just so much cheaper and easier .

The skins are convincing, as is the hempen rope ( again , something very hard to find recently ) , and the way it has been fitted in every detail, something that only a professional drum maker would know.The tightening buffs are again perfect. The distortion is also something that happens to hand made instuments, as is apparent if you look at "ethnic" drums .

The paintwork is actually redolent of much period decorative work, done really quite quickly. It reminds me of Tudor household decoration , which survives is odd corners of historic houses .Which is not to say for a moment that it's that old .

I think the drum is genuinely old, but as to what precise date I couldn't say... but pre industrial tools and machinery, which puts it at least into the early 19century.

It could possibly be an "ethnic " item repainted, except that the construction is exactly that you would expect of an 18century European drum rather than something from Africa of Asia .

The paint colours are also entirely period . Their thin application in places is nothing unusual , it happens when you work in oils. Granted that 19c and more recent Regimental drums are painted to a MUCH higher standard than this, but that takes a lot of time and trouble, and this might not be quite in that class.The painting is perhaps the least convincing part , but that doesn't rule it out as original .

One might finally ask why anyone would go to the trouble : this would have taken perhaps ten days or more to make from scratch,obtaining the materials would have been damned hard , and the profit might be a little thin for that amount of work

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Interesting observations, Tony- particularly your last as to why anyone would have gone to the effort of creating such a distressed item.

Developing the theatrical theme, could this have been a locally made instrument decorated or re-decorated for some kind of pageant in the C19th?

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Tony - your feelings on this drum are exactly how I felt when I first saw the picture. It is always easy to write things off as fakes -

however, there are items that can go forward 300 years and survive. I pointed out the high probability that it might be a 'prop' ,

but, I also said it was worthy of further research. Now that we know that it is a piece from a reputable dealer - and has a high

price attached, I feel that the probablity of it being of age is being substantiated. The first Jacobite rebellion was - I think - in 1702.

This led to a period of upheaval and risings - and therefore it is highly probable that this could be from that period when irregular

troops were being raised.

With regard to construction, I have seen this style in other early drums - and as you say the making of the shape was not easy.

The drum may not be for Atholl at all - there were plenty of other Scottish nobility. The fact that the ornament looks like the

Scottish Crown - now held in Edinburgh Castle - would also seem appropriate for this period. JF42 mentions the full arms of

Atholl - on a ceremonial drum - yes, they would be expected. For a rough drum made to lead men in an uprising, I doubt if

the skilled artists would even be available.

I think the motto has always to be - Keep an open mind. I hope members will continue to give their opinions on this piece ? Mervyn

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Most of your observations both pro and con I can see and agree with however, sadly, you only need to visit my shop to answer your question as to why would anyone take so long to create something that looks period for such small profit. :D

Not being an expert on antiquities, especially of the age this one represents I must go by my posket book. Would I purchase this item as an original? No. However, I could every well be walking away from an extremely valuable artifact, on the other hand I could be dodging a bullet. I can't tell if this is made from one piece of wood or from plywood as the skins cover that detail. I can't tell and I have been a cabinet maker for several more decades than I care to remember. Plywood has been around for centuries, not that I am suggesting that it was used in this case or even in the area where this drum would have been made. I can say that there were trees wide enough to have provided the wood needed to have been bent to serve as the outer shell a century ago. Steam bending of wood also goes back for centuries. While the drum skin looks to be old I do not agree that the ropes are original nor the material used to tighten these ropes strong enough to do the job properly. I do like the rope that runs along the bottom of the drum which no doubt would add a snare drum sound to this instument; a detail I would expect to be missing if this were an out and out fake. Having said that and at one time having been a semt-professional drummer I think this would be a detail I personally would not have missed if I were making a copy of an original.

Reputable auction houses and dealers? After the scandal involving two very well known auction houses a number of years back I think the words "reputable" and "dealer" need to be carefully ued especially within the same sentence. A pound of square cut nails for every so called expert dealer or auction house who has been fooled by a clever copy. Profit often clouds minds even to the point of the risk of sacrificing reputations.

I say this not to further an opinion but to add to the information contained here within.

I do hope this posts garthers more opinions as it is good to see lively discussion. I doubt this drum was beaten as much as the discussion here as to it's originality. ;)

Thanks for posting this Keven and well done gents on this interesting discussion.

Regards

Brian

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Mervyn...I think that is a very rocky road to go down suggesting something that has a high price attached to it gives it more credence to being genuine or substantiating its age. If anything I would be more suspicious when something of that age and rarity suddenly appears with no trace of provenance other than a dealer selling it 20 years before. Dealers get it wrong as well.... Provenance is King when dealing with something this old or subjective, as they usually 'aquire' an interesting story along the way that can be unearthed with a little research, thus giving the item even more credibility. I am with Brian, I would happily walk away from it and believe i had dodged a bullet. as no one can say for sure where it came from more than 20 years prior and that for me would be the overriding factor in buying it.

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Guys,

I have been sitting it out to see where it goes.

On the drum I will keep an open mind even though I now know where it comes from, Blunderbus do have a long time reputation, I remember them from the 'Exchange & Mart' in the 80's.

Tony makes some interesting points and seems to know what he is on about but when I view his profile to lend weight to his comments there are only 5 posts since 2011 to date and 1 of those is his comment here, that makes me wonder why you have chosen now this year to participate? Tony see picture of old string from the skip last month, there are a surprising amount of sources of old and aged material out there today.

My issue is about the very fabric of what these fora are, are we a community that looks out for each other and says what needs to be said or are we all PC and it is just a big marketing tool?

I am sure if the drum is purchased it will follow the same path as the Tampinions and the Nazi Eagles?! (see attached pictures)!

Kevin, the book ends could be from any number of countries yet you have them listed the TR other section with barely a sentence for £300 good luck to you but I would not want see some collector stung to that tune for €50-60 deco item.

Same deal with the bronze stuff?

It would be ok if this were a one off but many more examples of your MO can be posted Kevin and I hope you loose more money than you make as the collectors will be better off. I know though you are probably doing just fine selecting which site to manipulate next.

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I cannot comment on the drum itself, but I have to agree with Jock (both of them). But it seems that even the administrators will not move to eradicate such endeavours as Kevin practices, and I have tried that course.

There have been some very silly statements made about the provenance and authenticity of this drum. To provide any dealer as provenance is a nonsense. It is akin to my selling one of my helmets and claiming the provenance to be "I am selling one of my helmets." What a nonsense. On the same note I saw that the provenance for lot 184 of the same auction as "Property of a lady, Moorestown, NJ." What a joke.

I won't go into the "silly" statements about authenticity so as to avoid potential offence, because no matter how valid my comments may be a moderator may just disagree and delete such a post.

However, having decided not to enter the fray again I could not but finish on this note, but I think that now it is a case of -

Stuart

PS. At the very least it has given this section a much needed kick up the...

Edited by Stuart Bates
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Suggestions were put forward regarding the possible authenticity of this drum. This was an exercise to allow members to judge the item and to join-in. Warnings were given that it may be modern and there have been a number of good replies. The mention of the dealers

Blunderbuss was because they would not risk their reputation if they did not think the item had some merits. The comments by Jock

Tamson that I am prepared to accept provenance for the drum because of one picture and the dealer is nonsense - I have warned

all along that it is for members to make their own minds up.

Unfortunately, as is often the way on forums when there are items where opinions differ , rudeness creeps into the posts. One or two

are actually quite libelous and this should be remembered. I will not close-down the post - I think there is a lot that can be learned

from it's content. However, do remember you are not a 'hanging jury'. Drinking a bottle of brandy and then trying to be clever don't always go well together.

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Chill Dudes!

Here is the answer to all drum Questions.

Personally from the Photos i would not give a wet Kleenex for the piece shown, but maybe a hands on is needed.... There is so much aged woodwork fakes in the shops that has made it here from the east....

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