dante Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What do you think....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Hello Dante as a purchase not for me,sorry everything is wrong and I love them. The problem is everyone on forums has in their minds eye what an original should be, may I suggest you UV test, further they were never ever stitched using synthetics.When I first looked I thought of Indian (the Country) Jute, last the stamp,,, no way.regardsEricps I can guess the one on waf is fake also. They are only two people I respect on these (as colleagues) Patrick O. and Chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 Thanks Eric, came in from a member of the public with some medals, black light is ok, but these are always contentious items Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 It doesnt leave me fealing warm, although I admit it is not my collecting field. The part I do like is the leather rings, they look good. The rest leaves me a bit weary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 Must admit I have never seen one I like, but this displays well and with the "camo" and number "5" (which I have never seen before) it serves its purpose, anyone got one to show?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I have some I'm comfortable with but what do I know I've only been gawking at them for 30yrs. You gents should see ones made and worn by re-enactors they are frightening. Contrary to what people may think these guys are always working on their kit. The '5' means nothing to me we have a 5th. Sturm-Pionier-Bataillon "Rohr" (founded 1979) lol.!Its been too long my friend gone are the collecting days when you may find one literally stuck to a helmet. Often they'd just put the lid in a sack and stuff the surplus up inside the helmet...etc. It may sound 'silly' but did you smell it? it helps if you try and determine the age and b. if the material is period AND it may not even be German material don't forget.. You have to take into account sewing shops, cottage industry groups as well as field made, and go beyond what is considered 'regulation'. Everyone wants the winter job shown in Kraus's book,,I've seen one it sold for roughly $700+ over 25yrs ago. Generally German Korps stamps are a bad sign and ones overly tailored, forget a certain clip normally used on issued pickelhaube covers, they used anything.Dante I agree, contentious items for sure.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The rule of thumb on these is that Austrian covers use a draw-string, while issued German ones are held on the Stahlhelm with small metal hooks. Austrian covers were not brown, but originally died a light green, and over time the vegetable dies faded out to a light brown-tan. (I owned the one in Baer's book and was examined it very closely: traces of orginal color could still be seen in the seams, and the stains on the cover matched rust spots on the exterior of the helmet.) Also, the material, weave, draw-tape instead of cordage, and a few other details aren't right for an Austrian cover. German field made? The machine stitching suggests that cover was not made in the field.IMO? Fu'gedatboutit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Ambitious fantasy piece.Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 'Field made' W1 German examples are an insurmountable problem ones found today with clips are scarce puppies. In 1917 front soldiers started to be issued with dyed feldgauem I think is the word with interior cloth vent patches material included wasserdichten Papierstoff they rarely if ever had clips the draw string being paper yarn or common cotton weaved tape. When I started my interest experts informed me Austrian never had grommets and German did !!! Regarding book references the winter example shown in Kraus and Haselgrove's book show nice examples although the one pictured bottom pge 104 is Austrian imo.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Hello Les Are you referring to the Austrian pge 42 example in Baer? the one opposite pictured above the mg crew photo is a copy.Dante here is one example of original cloth used on 1917 issued examples, you may recall a recent canteen discovery, covers were for the glass bottle,,,,same material although it doesn't show too well because of age and resin its feldgrau.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Blimey sorry about the image size, this is better.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thanks guys, will take some more photos in the morn, all comments appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Eric, yes, that is the one I was yapping about. Although Baer's comments on the page below suggest the helmet and cover are both German, they aren't and the helmet along with the cover are actually Austrian. There are stains and wear marks on the cover that match up with rust or wear marks on the helmet underneath. Both were together for a very long time.Unlike the coarser material used on German covers, the cover in the photo is not unlike polished cotton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I have shown this helmet cover on other forums. I bought it out of a Canadian collection that was breaking up in 1985. I thought enough of it to pay a goodly sum for the time. Since that time I have seen so many reproductions, that I don't know what to think about this cover. I have to say that I have never seen another like it, though admittedly that could be either a good sign or a bad one. Anyway, I submit it for interest's sake.Chip ' alt='' class='ipsImage' >' alt='' class='ipsImage' >' alt='' class='ipsImage' >' alt='' class='ipsImage' >' alt='' class='ipsImage' > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Eric, close up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 My cover together with its helmet I carefully pulled it over the rim for a picture but it just sat on the helmet held by the vents.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Same design as mine excluding the vents, is that a grey blue stitching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Hello dante I'll take more pictures of what I have It helps if we dismiss what the article is and just research material. For example on Ersatzgewebe I found a wood mill that supplied tree bark to a paper mill, the 'pulp' was used by an underwear maker that produced a cover for one of my canteens, was that all they made from the material? I doubt it. The facilities were connected by a narrow gauge rail line, its still there, in parts and at least one of the buildings.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 More pictures of mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Check the way the seams are finished. These were machined using a zigzag process, which was not typical of how garments were sewn and finished during prior to the end of WWI. Industrial sewing machines developed between the wars were capable of doing this, and only after WWII did home-use machines have that capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Commercially Les early 1890's check Singer and they are ways to 'cheat' zig-zag you should have seen me Gran 'God Bless' working her old Singer. This goes back to some collectors who put forth numbers on haube covers weren't stitched so, which is incorrect. True sometime in the '50's you could buy update kits,, they still turn up on the ebays.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Eric, you're quite right about Singer developing a commercial zig-zag machine in the early 1890's, but those machines were made for stitching zig-zags only, not being able to do both. The dual purpose commercial machines came about after the war, and the development of home-use sewing machines that could do both (without having to use an attachment) and were affordable to the general public, was introduced after WWII. Along those lines, the date something is patented or produced for the first time, isn't necessarily an indication of when it made it's way into common use. (Humor only: the first time atomic weapons were made was in 1945, but that doesn't mean everyone has them and uses them routinely to make holes in the ground.)Look at how Chips cover was made. ALL of the seams are tucked and folded over, then sewn down with a straight stitch leaving no raw edges. Any machine that sews only a straight stitch line could do this. My Austrian cover was done exactly the same way.Eric, now look at your cover. The seams along the center of the cover, are folded out, then left raw edged without being sewn down. There is nothing wrong with this way of sewing, and saves time.Now, look at Dante's cover and we see there two types of stitching methods used, that require two different types of machine types, when a straight stitch made could have been used by its' own, to do everything, without using zig-zagging at all. Zig-zagging takes longer than straight-stitching, and is not necessary to produce a finished seam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Good points Les the raw edge interior sewing is like my 1917 dated example which unfortunately I no longer have. Ones made from cotton appear to be cut in one piece folded and stitched simple, like many haube covers.What do you know about old weave machines lol! you know I don't care people will either like or not what I have I promise to take more pics this week, including a couple of 100% copies I kept.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Les seeing your into Austrian may I ask why people refer to the helmet as m16? as a kid and up to moving to the US we always called them Austrian M17. I mean't to ask you last weekend but forgot, btw I had a great time as usual.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 GentsDoes anyone have period images of covers with leather grommets they'd be willing to share, other than Austrian? Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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