Kriegsmarine Kriegsmarine Cap Emblems

[Erik Krogh 0]

An interesting presentation of a U-93 tradition emblem. Sewn onto a full-size KM towel...

[Peter BL 0]

Interesting Eric....Any chance of a close-up.

A very nice U-Boat collection from the 1970's turned up on a UK site this week. I managed to secure the 2 emblems which I'll post up when they arrive. But missed out on the O/S cap with the Sawfish attached. An emblem I'm sure would be considered original.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Peter Baillie

[Erik Krogh 0]

Peter,

Here's a closeup of the U-93 traditions badge.

Cheers!

Erik

[Jesse 0]

Any thoughts on this one Gents. I've never seen the symbol but might roll the dice...

[Jesse 0]

I've just been offered this emblem...any thoughts would be appreciated.

KR.....Peter

Just my immediate thoughts are that it looks to "clean" or new. The edges are a little to crisp for me and the metal too uniform. Tough always though with these. Its been a while since you posted did you already decide? Maybe you have more pictures or info on it by know?

Hope it worked out - Jesse

[Peter BL 0]

Just my immediate thoughts are that it looks to "clean" or new. The edges are a little to crisp for me and the metal too uniform. Tough always though with these. Its been a while since you posted did you already decide? Maybe you have more pictures or info on it by know?

Hope it worked out - Jesse

That's what I thought Jesse. I decided to pass on this one. I'll post up a couple of new arrivals tomorrow.

I've just been looking at that enameled badge myself.....difficult to say to be honest. I'm not convinced.

All the best.....Peter

Edited July 11, 2011 by Peter Baillie

[Peter BL 0]

A couple of new Emblems.

First up U20

Edited July 12, 2011 by Peter Baillie

[Peter BL 0]

The Seahorse Emblem from either U-1231 or U-97

Edited July 12, 2011 by Peter Baillie

[Erik Krogh 0]

The Seahorse Emblem from either U-1231 or U-97

Peter,

Both of your new pieces certainly have that "been there look". Any provenance?

Best,

Erik

[Gordon Williamson 6]

Both of your new pieces certainly have that "been there look". Any provenance?

Thereby lies the problem with these crew badges. It is virtually impossible to prove originality and in most cases you end up having to go with "gut feeling". The Seahorse for example though, certainly has that look of real wear and age about it and, to me, certainly has nothing about it to suggest it is anything other than good.

As to the badge offered by Thomas Huss, that looks good to me also. Bear in mind that although the "on board" made badges are always rather crude, the enamelled badges were usually contracted out to local badge makers and were almost always of very fine quality.

I recall the box full of original enamel Sawfish badges that were discovered in the stores of a badge maker in France some years back, perfect little pieces and of superior quality. They were donated as a gift to the U-Boot Archiv.

[Peter BL 0]

Peter,

Both of your new pieces certainly have that "been there look". Any provenance?

Best,

Erik

Hi Erik..no rock solid provenance but I'm as certain as I can be these are period. I know they're part of an impressive Kriegsmarine collection that came onto the market a couple of weeks ago. A collection that included a rare Kriegsmarine Schellenbaum flag.

Thanks Gordon...You're right of course.This has got to be one of the most difficult areas of collecting. Trust me to take an interest in Tradition emblems

KR....Peter

[Erik Krogh 0]

Thereby lies the problem with these crew badges. It is virtually impossible to prove originality and in most cases you end up having to go with "gut feeling". The Seahorse for example though, certainly has that look of real wear and age about it and, to me, certainly has nothing about it to suggest it is anything other than good.

To paraphrase Margaret Wolfe Hungerford, "authenticity is in the eye of the beholder". :cheers:

[Peter BL 0]

I've had this emblem for a while. Not sure if this is period or a postwar piece. It's got the '800' stamped on the back.....any thoughts?

[Jesse 0]

I've had this emblem for a while. Not sure if this is period or a postwar piece. It's got the '800' stamped on the back.....any thoughts?

This emblem is mentioned in Georg Hogel's book "U-Boat Emblems of World War II" on pg.34. Hogel wrote :" Crew 37 b * Author: This symbol was characterized by the saying, 'First win, then marry! ' ". - (Some saying for the war effort is my best guess?)

The blade across the feather was used by alot of boats according to the book, but without the horizontal bar beneath both. Just a guess but maybe the bar and pin were added to an original emblem post war in order for it to be worn? The emblem looks good to my eyes but the pin and 3 prong attachment to the bar looks to be more modern?

These are always difficult to determine as everyone has said. So much info has been lost and will remain that way I guess. However real interesting and addicting to this collector... .

[Jesse 0]

Thereby lies the problem with these crew badges. It is virtually impossible to prove originality and in most cases you end up having to go with "gut feeling". The Seahorse for example though, certainly has that look of real wear and age about it and, to me, certainly has nothing about it to suggest it is anything other than good.

As to the badge offered by Thomas Huss, that looks good to me also. Bear in mind that although the "on board" made badges are always rather crude, the enamelled badges were usually contracted out to local badge makers and were almost always of very fine quality.

I recall the box full of original enamel Sawfish badges that were discovered in the stores of a badge maker in France some years back, perfect little pieces and of superior quality. They were donated as a gift to the U-Boot Archiv.

Thanks very much for the input Gordon. I was able to buy one of the green saw fish emblems and the owner had told me that it was from the U-Boot Archive. At the time this was discouraging a bit because I was thinking along the lines of it being a tourist trinket and couldn't understand why they would be selling them. I took the chance anyway.

The enameled badge from Thomas is real puzzling. I can't find any reference in Hogel's book so it probably rules it out as a U-Boat badge. My best guess is E-Boat or something. Any ideas where or how I could carry on the research on this one?

Thanks Much always Gents - Jesse

[Martin W 3]

As to the badge offered by Thomas Huss, that looks good to me also. Bear in mind that although the "on board" made badges are always rather crude, the enamelled badges were usually contracted out to local badge makers and were almost always of very fine quality.

The badge on Thomas's site is quite fascinating,i have never seen anything like it.

It depicts a mine,a torpedo and the sawfish emblem of the Kleinkampfverbande?

Very intersting,if original.

Regards,Martin.

[Gordon Williamson 6]

The little green enamel swafish badges were, at the time, sold off by the Archive to raise funds, (they wouldn't do that with items donated by ex-U-Boat crew themselves but as they got a box load of these for free keeping a sample for the Archive collection and using the rest to raise funds was a sensible idea). They really should have charged much more for them even back then. I recall buying one for just £10 ! You couldn't even buy a fake one for that price now, let alone an original. I seem to remember though that you could only buy a single example.

These crew badges tend to be almost automatically associated with the U-Boats but the truth is that they were also widely used amongst the smaller surface units. The larger units (battyleships, cruisers etc) were subjected to a higher level of discipline and uniformity and although badges with ships crests etc were made, they were not to be worn on the cap in the way that U-Boat crew badges were. The biggest part of the Kriegsmarine in terms of the number of ships and personnel was the Sicherungsverbände,(Minesweepers, R-Boats, Geleitboote etc) and many of them adopted Flotilla badges.

Sadly,there has been very little research done on these other badges. Hopefully one day someone might produce a reference work on thesed similar to Högel's work on the U-Boat emblems.

[Erik Krogh 0]

These crew badges tend to be almost automatically associated with the U-Boats but the truth is that they were also widely used amongst the smaller surface units. The larger units (battyleships, cruisers etc) were subjected to a higher level of discipline and uniformity and although badges with ships crests etc were made, they were not to be worn on the cap in the way that U-Boat crew badges were. The biggest part of the Kriegsmarine in terms of the number of ships and personnel was the Sicherungsverbände,(Minesweepers, R-Boats, Geleitboote etc) and many of them adopted Flotilla badges.

Sadly,there has been very little research done on these other badges. Hopefully one day someone might produce a reference work on thesed similar to Högel's work on the U-Boat emblems.

Gordon,

Great point regarding the widespread use of traditions badges by the KM surface fleet. Here is a shot of raumboot crew members sporting cap badges from a photo album in my collection. I agree that it would indeed be helpful to have a reference work on this subject.

Erik

[Martin W 3]

These crew badges tend to be almost automatically associated with the U-Boats but the truth is that they were also widely used amongst the smaller surface units.

And the Hilfskreuzers too Gordon.

Many of the ships had a traditions badge that was worn by crewmen on their caps.

Here is a well published image of the Atlantis "shark and merchant ship" in wear.

Regards,Martin.

[Martin W 3]

Here is a very rare image that shows the "fist and hammer" traditions badge of the HK Thor in wear.

Regards,Martin.

[Peter BL 0]

Great pictures Martin...I take it these tradition badges are near impossible to find.

[Martin W 3]

Great pictures Martin...I take it these tradition badges are near impossible to find.

If original,i think that they are near impossible to find Peter.

I have seen many Atlantis badges but i think most of them were produced postwar and they were handed out at their Kameradschaft meetings.

Here is a postwar lapel badge that i received with a grouping from an Atlantis Officer.

I have never seen an original Thor badge.

Regards,Martin.

[Martin W 3]

Reverse of lapel pin.

[all1knew 0]

My 10 U-Flottille emblem. Size 33 mm X 20 mm

This one was found in Lorient in 1978 among artifacts from an old french FFI resistant who fought in Lorient in 1944/1945.

I think that it's french made one.

Regards

Ben

Hello there,

This and the 1st Flottilla emblems are my favorite.

William Kramer

[Peter BL 0]

Here's a latest addition to the collection. An officers sidecap bearing the emblem for U-763. I'm not sure what the crossed swords represent, possibly it's sister ship U-761.