Speaking of H.M.Prisons...

[Mike McLellan]

Oh, We Weren't? Sorry. But, as long as you're here; Has anybody ever her of "Her Majesty's Convict Department"? Among my smattering of HMP insignia is a No 1 Dress belt buckle. It's quite heavy, non magnetic, and of a suspicious yellow color that resembles brand-new brass. In fact, it appears way too new. No honest wear anyplace. It's kind of cool, but I fear it's as phony as a three dollar bill. It came to me about thirty years ago from a collector in England who made no claims whatever about its authenticity. It's well made and begs the question: why would anyone take the trouble to counterfeit something that doesn't exist? Any opinions would be welcome. Thanks, Mike.

[Trooper_D]

Mike

Some quick searches on Google suggest that it is colonial. A Convict Department was certainly set up in Australia and, perhaps South Africa as well - PM Mervyn Mitton as he might like to comment on the SA connection.

Some links for you. This thread asks pretty much the same question you have,

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21042

Here is a cap badge (from the back, so the lettering is in reverse), with a similar design, from Australia,

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=303337

Here is a newspaper article, dated 1836, concerning the setting up of the Convict Department in Australia,

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3340027

I hope that helps.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Trooper_D
Fixing links

[Mike McLellan]

Thanks Trooper D. Interesting reading. I did consider a Colonial origin, but with no evidentiary support, any theory is just a guess. Australia seems a likely candidate, but I'm having trouble trying to imagine the Aussie keepers, of that era, getting all dressed up in near-formal attire, which this buckle would surely suggest. It's like renting a tuxedo to enter a hog-wrestling contest. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this, or simply not thinking. Thanks again, Mike.

[Trooper_D]

... but I'm having trouble trying to imagine the Aussie keepers, of that era, getting all dressed up in near-formal attire, which this buckle would surely suggest.

Mike

I think it might be a mistake to think in terms of 'Aussies', with the informality that implies, during the nineteenth century. I'm sure that they would all think of themselves as 'Brits', with all the formality - including uniforms - that that implies!

[Mike McLellan]

A point well taken. Their flag is testimony to that sentiment. Thanks again, Mike.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Trooper D is almost certainly correct  -  this will have a colonial background.  The pattern is a standard Victorian one and I suspect has been re-polished to get years of tarnish off.

I also suspect a link with South Africa  -  however, our Colonial Services tended to establish patterns that were used in many Colonies.     Mervyn

[Mervyn Mitton]

These are two of the rarest Convict helmet plates for South Africa.  These are the Victorian and Edward 7th for Robben Island   -  which lies off Capetown.    Mandela was imprisoned there so it has become a mecca for tourists.

[MetPolice]

Mike, any chance of getting a better pic of the Chief Officer's cap badge at the very top, please... 

Cheers, Zeb

[Mike McLellan]

Thanks Gents! Lots of good information. I still have some doubts, but I'll concede that this thing might be the real McCoy. Zeb, here's the pics you asked about:

Edited August 5, 2015 by Mike McLellan
spelling

[MetPolice]

Thanks very much Mike! Not been able to find a good photo of one, until now! 

Zeb

[Mervyn Mitton]

Mike  -  take my word for it  -  your buckle looks absolutely correct.   Just a buff that has left a matt finish.    Mervyn

[CollectorInTheUSA]

Speaking of HM Prisons, this is for Inspector of H.M. Prisons.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Collectorin the USA     -  welcome to GMIC and thankyou for sending the Parker  Field tipstaff engraved for an Inspector of Prisons.   This would have been for a Regional Appointment and he would have been in charge of a given district.   The pattern of tipstaff is around the 1870's.    H.M.Inspector of Prisons would have carried a more elaborate staff - and probably in Ivory.      Do you have any other examples  ?    Mervyn

[Mike McLellan]

Collector, That is a beauty. There seem to be a lot tip staves out there, but very few of them hold any real interest to me, personally. As a prison officer with 25 years service, your tipstaff is one that I would call a "keeper". Very nice. Mike.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Mike McLellan

[CollectorInTheUSA]

Unfortunately it's not my tipstaff, it was bought at auction by a UK dealer and then sold a while back.  This is the auction picture.

[NickLangley]

The quality is superb. Pity the collectors of a hundred-years'-time discussing the finer points of an unissued wicking polo and ID lanyard.

[dante]

This was given to me by my boss who got it from his Chief Officer, one of 36 made in gilt for Chiefs King Edward VIII cap badge

[Dave Wilkinson]

With respect, not wishing to burst your bubble but it looks identical to the two I have which are brass. They are, considering Edward's short reign, surprisingly common. I don't know how many Prison Officers were employed in 1935/6 but judging by the number of these badges which are about I would guess that they must have had a good few hundred supplied.

Dave.

 

[dante]

No probs Dave, just passing on what I was told....you know what screws are like with tea boat stories.........

[paul wood]

The other problem with EVIII badges is that because he abdicated people saved them thinking that they would be a future heirloom.

Whereas those from earlier or later reigns were not so treasured.

Paul

 

[oldscrew]

Mike,

 That is a very nice collection of badges you have. I wonder if you have any information on  the w/m HMP badge within the wreath it isn't UK but colonial to the best of my knowledge.

   As for the Edward VII badge they are fairly common to come across there is a female version in brass and w/m which the only examples I've ever seen  were in the Galleries of Justice Museum, Nottingham. 

 Finally the Prison Inspectors Tipstaff as you quite rightly pointed out was sold at auction in the West Midlands, UK for about £300 pounds to a dealer who subsequently sold it shortly after for £1000.00 not a bad profit. 

[Mike McLellan]

Hi Oldscrew. I don't recall where that badge came from. I got it along with a small bag of colonial prison badges about 35 years ago, most of which I've long since parted with. I think that it was originally from Africa. I saved it because it's very similar to a badge I once saw on a very old woodcut print of a prison officer transporting a wagon load of prisoners. I think it started life mounted on a shako or similar head dress. It's still one of my favorites. Mike.

[Dave Wilkinson]

These badges were apparently made in two sizes. One for a helmet/shako and the other for a cap ? I have never been able to find out which Colony they are from. That said, I have found that the prefix "HM" tended/tends to be used in the Caribbean Islands as opposed to the other territories who tend to use simply Prison Service prefixed by the name of the territory. See the two examples which I have in my collection. I suspect that they were somewhat "generic" being used by more than one Colony/Territory.

 

Dave.  

Edited October 12, 2015 by Dave Wilkinson

[oldscrew]

Hello both,

      Thank you very much for the information and the pictures.I had hoped very much that prison service badges would have been included in British Colonial Badges vols.1 & 2 by Barry, Margaret Renfrew and Bill Cranston but once again they were omitted ,the forgotten service.