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Hi Gordon,  Thank you for your input on this subject.  The photos, although not conclusive, do prove that the wear of military uniform and insignia is correct.  The narrative is also very interesting and I have selected the one statement which, at least to me, clarifies the whole military aspect of chaplains.   "They are members of the Bundeswehr".  Ergo they are, or I would assume they are subject to military regulations and laws and will be uniformed and equipped to military scales of entitlement??  I would extrapolate that with military uniform they will also wear appropriate headdress. I do not find it surprising that few photos show chaplains wearing hats as in the performance of their duties and whilst indoors, headdress is usually not worn?

Hi, A few more Bundeswehr caps to view for those who may be interested.  The first two are early pattern Panzer enlisted caps in dark grey with pink (rose) piping and the third is a later pattern cap in light grey with white piping for Musicians.

A OR Pink (1).JPG

A OR Pink (2).JPG

A OR White.JPG

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And a few more.  The first two are late pattern light grey with bright red piping for the Artillery.  The third is also of later pattern but with golden yellow piping for Reconnaissance etc.  Hope that they are of interest.

A OR Red (1).JPG

A OR Red (2).JPG

A OR Yellow (1).JPG

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Michael,

"... Chaplains not wearing uniform or military insignia and he (Ewe = Uwe) is patently wrong as the subsequent photos from Gordon prove??"

My answer above: "They don't wear military clothes or insignias. If they wear uniform parts, they wear "protective clothing" (Schutzkleidung) :rolleyes:."  > Please have a look on the emoticon.

 

"The marine cap in Post 18 can not be (German) military". On what grounds can this statement of fact be substantiated??"

I cannot find such a cap with a cloth visor in the official Army regulations (ZDv 37/10), not in the edition from 1982 and not in the edition from 1989. Therefore I say once more, that such a cap with a cloth visor and the chaplains badge on it can not be (German) military. Please show me your proofs for it, and I will apologize.

 

"I joined this Forum to learn and educate by the use of facts and credible opinion and discussion, not sweeping statements of incorrect and unsubstantiated opinion."

The shown badges of the chaplains are not official. You can not compare the British or US forces with the German forces. The Germans have their own rules, especially for the chaplains.

Once more my link, it is an official site from the Bundeswehr (Impressum Bundesministerium der Verteidigung):

Bw Militärseelsorge

"Daraus ergibt sich auch eine besondere Rechtsstellung des Militärgeistlichen. Er ist kein Soldat und trägt keine Uniform." > This also results in a special legal status of the military chaplain. He is not a soldier, and not wearing a uniform.

"Deutsche Militärgeistliche tragen im Einsatz eine Schutzkleidung." > German chaplains wear protective clothing in military operations.

 

By the way, it seems to me, that not only these fantasy pieces came from one seller (in China?).

Uwe

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Hello Uwe, Thank you for your message.  I will agree to disagree with you but no more.  Gordon's photos clearly show chaplains wearing BW uniforms in varying styles both protective, combat and every day.  The cap is clearly German military.  Badges from China I have no idea.  Certainly, from a quality point of view they are far superior to some of the other badges that I have  which are or were worn by the BW?? So perhaps they are Chinese, too good for German??  Finally, the below passage clearly states that "They are members of the Bundeswehr".  They are paid by the Bundeswehr and wear uniforms but no ranks. As is the case in the  British forces and German, chaplains are independent, non combatant and not soldiers however they do participate in exercises and no doubt on the battlefield and will be subject to most military laws etc.  Civilians in uniform perhaps or as you would have it not in uniform.  In any event, I like them so hay ho!! 

By the way, if I an correct, then you have no need to apologize. Although a little heated, this is none-the-less only a discussion.  And as I said earlier, the fact that you can find no evidence of their wear, is not in its self proof that such items are spurious.

With thanks regards and best wishes  Michael R

The military chaplains are (usually for at least 6 years) from their national churches and diocesesoptional for this service. They take part in exercises and Bundeswehr operations abroad. The military chaplains have no military rank, are not soldiers or combatants , and are under the special protection of the international law of war. They are members of the Bundeswehr, federal officials on time and be paid out of the Bundeswehr budget. There are so-called denominational state offices, the State may exceptionally consider the religious view or an agreement of the ecclesiastical authority in the occupation; This is constitutionally by Art. 140 GGin conjunction with Article 141. WRV justified. [5] In use, wear military chaplains - like the soldiers - the battle dress with a cross instead of rank insignia.

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Hi,  Three more Enlisted Ranks caps to view for those interested.  They are a later patter pattern light grey signals cap with bright yellow piping and two Air Force caps.  The first is the current pattern cap with golden yellow piping followed by an earlier cap with grey piping.

A OR Yellow (2).JPG

AF OR (1).JPG

AF OR (2).JPG

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A minor change to the visor caps worn by Bundeswehr Army officers.  Both caps are for wear by junior or company officers.  Item one is an early dark grey cap with silver piping and dark grey backed officer's pattern cap device. Item two is is the later light grey cap of identical style to one but manufactured in light grey materiel with a dark grey cap band.  The badge, although in style, identical to item one, is executed on a light grey field.

A JO (1).JPG

A JO (2).JPG

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Continuing with junior officer's caps Item 3 is again a later pattern cap in light grey with a dark grey cap band of a ribbed materiel rather than smooth.  The light grey is several shades paler than Item 2 and the cap device is of the older style executed on a dark grey field.  Item 4 is an earlier dark grey cap but with an inter changeable cover.  The cover is piped in white, the badge is executed on a dark grey field  and I believe this to be for wear by Military Police officers?  If I am wrong on this description, please let me know as I am here to learn.  Many thanks.

A JO (4).JPG

A JO (5).JPG

The final cap that I will show in this section, Item five is again of a later pattern cap in light grey with an earlier style cap badge executed on a dark grey field. The cap is identical to Item two but of a higher build standard with a very high crown. The National roundel is of the metal type and is probably a replacement??

A JO (3).JPG

Edited by Michael R
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Some Luftwaffe Company officer's caps.  All are of standard patter with minor variations of shade and insignia.  The first cap is a fairly early item and of a more "floppy" style.  Hope they are of interest.

AF JO (1).JPG

AF JO (2).JPG

AF JO (3).JPG

And a couple more.  Once again, only minor variations.

AF JO (4).JPG

AF JO (5).JPG

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Hi, Back to the Bundeswhehr Army.  The next few caps are for Senior or Field Grade Officers in the ranks of Major to Colonel inclusive.  Both have the standard Army Officer's pattern cap device on a light grey field and have a floppy crown. the shading of both the covers and of the cap bands vary.

Regards  MR

 

A SO (2).JPG

A SO (3).JPG

Edited by Michael R
Incorrect info and duplicated photo
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Continuing with the Senior Officer's caps, The next two are Air Force for the ranks of Major to Colonel inclusive.  The Air Force appears to have greater control over the colour shading of their caps which tend to be of a greater degree of uniformity.

AF SO (2).JPG

AF SO (3).JPG

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Yes Paul, I like them too!!!

Regards  Michael

This next Army cap is somewhat contentious!! I believe it to be a copy others say a private purchase variation.  What say you????  Your opinions and reasoning would be greatly appreciated.

A GO.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Back to the Bundeswehr.  Some Marine caps.  The first two are junior officers caps whilst the third item is a PO's cap and the final cap is also a PO's cap but with a coloured chin strap which probably does not belong with the cap??  Your opinions are invited.

N JO (1).JPG

N JO (2).JPG

N OR (1).JPG

N OR (2).JPG

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I've never seen BW Naval caps before.  Very interesting.  I have no idea what the broken gold/blue cap cord represents.  I do know that they went onto WW2 Sea Rescue hats.  

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Hi Paul, Thank you for your comments.

 

Hi Gigoo,  Thank you for showing us all your Feldjaegar caps.  All very smart and I see you have two officer's caps!!  Very nice.  keep em coming please.

By the way, may I ask your name rather than using your tag name please??

Cheers and best wishes to all

Michael

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Michael,

Woven cap cords were not worn on any forms of head dress in the BW.  Only the flat black ones.  The coloured cords on your BM cap could be from a couple of different areas; 1-DDR Postal cap, or 2-BRD Railroad cap.  I haven't taken the time to go through my reference material to see if I can identify them.  That would be an interesting piece of research for me.

Regards,

Gordon

 

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Hi Gordon,  Thank you very much for your message and information.  I took the cord off that cap a few months ago but the photo pre dated the change.  I wondered if it was perhaps a customs cord or police etc??  In any event, the cap currently wears a plain black chin strap so thank you for your confirmation!!! As a matter of interest, I acquired a box full of chin straps a few years back and haven't got a clue what they are.  There is an interesting variety of them so if you want a research project, let me know and I'll photograph them!!!  LOL.

many thanks Gordon

Cheers Michael

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Hi, Three more Bundeswehr Naval visor caps for review. All are for wear by senior naval officers and feature a pair of single arcs of gold wire embroidered oak leaves running around the outer edge of the visor and a gold embroidered cap device featuring a fouled anchor encompasse by an open top oak leaf wreath and ensigned by a National Cockade. All have removable cloth covers and black vinyl chinstraps.

The final cap is, I believe, worn by a Federal police officer.  The chin strap is very similar to that shown on the PO's cap in Post 41 above.  Shown for interest and reference.

N SO (1).JPG

N SO (2).JPG

N SO (3).JPG

P.JPG

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A pair of Bundesmarine Flag Officer's visor caps. The first cap is something of an anomaly to me and your opinions are welcome. The cap has a white cover and cloth covered visor. The visor is embellished with a pair of double arcs of gold wire embroidered oak leaves of high quality and the chin strap is of standard pattern shinny vinyl with gold metal buttons. The cap deviates from the norm in that it has a metal National Roundel centered on a blue materiel field rather than the usual Officer type roundel in gold wire. My theory is that perhaps the metal roundel has been used to facilitate the washing of the cap cover??  The other anomaly is the style of the National Cockade which is similar to the norm but differs in the shapes of both the oak leaf wreath and the badge field???  Again, my theories are, a possible variation style badge, the wrong badge or perhaps an early style badge??

The second cap, with a blue cover is, other than the cover colour and the anomalies described for the previous cap, identical to the previous cap.

N FO (1).JPG

N FO (2).JPG

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Some other, non military West German visor caps.

Customs Official with embroidered National cockade and roundel.

Railways Police Officer with metal star device and meta National roundel.

Berlin Police Officer's cap with all embroidered insignia.

I am not a collector of West German civil headdress so if any of my descriptions are incorrect, please feel free to correct me!!

P (5).JPG

C.JPG

P (6).JPG

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