Welsh Ranks on Police LSGC medals.

[bigjarofwasps]

On 20/10/2018 at 20:19, bigjarofwasps said:

It's been a couple of years now since, I started this thread. Would be interested to know if anyone has added a Welsh named medal to their collection yet? 

Still yet to see an example, come onto the market. They would appear to be very rare, would be interesting to see how much of a premium one would demand?

[bigjarofwasps]

Just thinking outside the box for a moment, I think I'm right in believing that medals named in Welsh must be the rarest example of medals issued to British Police Officer in the history of the issue of the Police LSGC. Wiki has total officers serving in Wales in 2006 as 7529. I envisage that this amount hasn't increased that significantly since 2006. When you then consider out of that number how many go on to serve the required 20 years and out of that number how many elect to have their medals engraved with Welsh ranks and out of that number how many find their way onto the market. I suspect the odds of ever adding one to your collection is bordering on hens teeth status...................? 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I doubt it. The rarest examples of PLS&GC medals will be those showing Chief Officer (Ch.Offr..) rank. A number of the non-Home Office forces were headed by a Chief Officer (as opposed to Chief Constable). The number of medals issued bearing that rank would be very few. Possibly no more than a dozen or so. 

Dave.

[bigjarofwasps]

49 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

I doubt it. The rarest examples of PLS&GC medals will be those showing Chief Officer (Ch.Offr..) rank. A number of the non-Home Office forces were headed by a Chief Officer (as opposed to Chief Constable). The number of medals issued bearing that rank would be very few. Possibly no more than a dozen or so. 

Dave.

Interesting concept Dave. But I wonder how many of the Chief Officers obtained their 20 years before going into that rank, so their medal would be named to their rank at the time of qualification. Where as the Welsh rank naming can be obtained at any time if that make sense. Also Chief Officer in Welsh would be unique I would guess? 

[Dave Wilkinson]

You have to remember that in 1951, when the PLS&GC medal was introduced, all those who had 22 years service with unblemished conduct would have been in the frame to get the medal. That would have included all the CC's and their (very few) non-Home Office equals. Since then there would have been further awards. However, those small non-HO forces which existed in Wales have long since disappeared, well before Welsh naming became the norm. I would think that the number of Welsh rank named medals would be (by this time) many hundreds. However, I take your point. As an aside, isn't it interesting that the rank abbreviations  on the PLS&GC medal are never shown as "PC", "PS" or "PI" ?    

Edited July 2, 2019 by Dave Wilkinson

[bigjarofwasps]

I think the Welsh rank naming only came in around 2006? 

[dpk]

Interesting idea on language variations. Might be a struggle to get all the required letters on the rim of a Welsh police medal-!!!

[bigjarofwasps]

Chief Inspector Prif Arolyygydd

[bigjarofwasps]

 

[dpk]

Hi Gordon- I haven't but very keen to do so- if you or other readers have one to sell please let me know!!

[bigjarofwasps]

On 13/09/2021 at 02:45, dpk said:

Hi Gordon- I haven't but very keen to do so- if you or other readers have one to sell please let me know!!

The term “Hen’s Teeth” springs to mind! 
 

When/if examples appear on the open market, will certainly be interesting to see what if any, premium they command? 
 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

Example of a Welsh rank on an LSGC to a female Officer. 

[bigjarofwasps]

Welsh language act.
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_Act_1993

 

It appears that there is a similar language act in Scotland. Perhaps in time, we’ll see Gaelic ranks on medals too?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_ ... _(Scotland)_Act_2005

 

Would be interested to learn what these ranks would be.

[bigjarofwasps]

[bigjarofwasps]

Interesting to learn that the RCMP have two variations of their LSGC one in English the other in French.

 

I wonder in time, would there perhaps be scope for a new Welsh variant, of British police LSGC? 

[bigjarofwasps]

Am seeking confirmation under the freedom of information act, as to what numbers of medals have been engraved in Welsh. Numbers produced by force, and numbers of ranks are known to exist. Should I have any sort of formal confirmation, I will of course post it on this thread.

[Dave Wilkinson]

I would not hold your breath. I suspect that they will tell you that the amount of research involved would be such that to provide such information would be inordinate and that if it were to be provided there would be a cost involved which you would need to be prepared to pay.

 

Dave.

[bigjarofwasps]

On 05/09/2022 at 19:49, Dave Wilkinson said:

I would not hold your breath. I suspect that they will tell you that the amount of research involved would be such that to provide such information would be inordinate and that if it were to be provided there would be a cost involved which you would need to be prepared to pay.

 

Dave.

Dave, I fear you may well be correct. Haven’t even received a confirmation of receipt of email, yet.

 

I wonder whether it’s worth contacting the 4 Welsh forces directly……? 

[bigjarofwasps]

Had this rather curious reply from the Royal Mint, I can only assume that they are sent for engraving somewhere other than the Royal Mint? 
 

Many thanks for your information request. We have made internal enquiries and we can confirm that the Royal Mint has not produced any Welsh engraved Police Long Services Medals. Beyond that we do not hold any information falling within scope of your request. 

Best wishes

FOI Team

[Dave Wilkinson]

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did.  I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest.

 

If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality.   Best of luck!

 

Dave.

[bigjarofwasps]

On 22/09/2022 at 19:46, Dave Wilkinson said:

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did.  I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest.

 

If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality.   Best of luck!

 

Dave.

Whatever the actual numbers maybe? I fear we may never know.

 

One thing is for certain, there won’t be anymore, once the new effigy comes into effect! Given there apparent uniqueness I would assume that such examples will be a novelty to collectors? Will certainly be interesting to see if they demand any sort of premium?
 

Whenever the new effigy comes into being, they’ll also be be a whole new collecting sphere opened to collectors!

[Cerrig-Man]

Surely such medals must be fairly unique? Especially when compared to how many "normal" examples must be out there. Thousands I suspect, whereas Welsh ones perhaps less than a few hundred, if that? That would certainly explain why any are yet to appear in collectors hands? 

 

Would certainly be very interesting to see how such an example, should it come up for sale or indeed auction, would go for. I remember a few years back seeing an NCA LSGC, for sale on Ebay. It was fiercely contested and went for a few hundred pounds if I recall. Not seen one since. 

 

Now we have the potential concluding of E11R effigies, and the impending introduction of a C111R effigy. I would imagine examples E11R will be rare. Will the potential for C111R examples over take, if 2006 is the year of the first appearance, that gives a potential 16 years worth of E11R examples.  Assuming C111R reign lasts longer than 16 years, there is every possibility that we could in fact see more of these than the later? 

 

Given the recent swapping of the market with the various jubilee medals, will be interesting to see if we see whether a similar situation with LSGC's to the various organisations transpires..................

 

 

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

When you say that an "NCA" PLS&GC medal sold several years ago on eBay. Presumably it was described as such by the seller as opposed to having "NCA" marked on the medal. If the latter was the case then it was surely an error of some sort. I say that as force names are not marked (more is the pity) on such medals.

 

Dave. 

[bigjarofwasps]

6 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

When you say that an "NCA" PLS&GC medal sold several years ago on eBay. Presumably it was described as such by the seller as opposed to having "NCA" marked on the medal. If the latter was the case then it was surely an error of some sort. I say that as force names are not marked (more is the pity) on such medals.

 

Dave. 

I believe this maybe the medal being referred to. It’s certainly the only of it’s kind, I’m aware of. Don’t recall how it was engraved, although I do remember it was. The NCA have all sorts of weird and wonderful ranks, sure this medal did include a rank, but as you say it didn’t include NCA after the recipients name. 

[Cerrig-Man]

8 minutes ago, bigjarofwasps said:

I believe this maybe the medal being referred to. It’s certainly the only of it’s kind, I’m aware of. Don’t recall how it was engraved, although I do remember it was. The NCA have all sorts of weird and wonderful ranks, sure this medal did include a rank, but as you say it didn’t include NCA after the recipients name. 

 

 

 

Sold for a few hundred pounds if memory serves me well. Not aware of any others coming onto the market. Would being to see if they hold this value? Are they listed in the 2022 Medal Year Book, what does that give there potential value as?

 

Does the Medal Year book, make any mention of Welsh engraving? Would certainly be  interested to see if it does. Wikipedia doesn't?