DarthZealous Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) Just received a new book on Japanese Orders, and as the image below shows there were clips that could be worn, in the design of the Imperial Mon, to be used to keep the Collar of the Chrysanthemum securely fastened over the epaulettes. I cant help but wonder if these clips are merely for the Emperor, as I cant seem to find any images of anyone else wearing them except the Showa Emperor (below) and also the Taisho Emperor. I noticed others who wear the collar have them secured under the epaulettes, as shown below with Yamagata, Ōyama and Togo (below). I am sure others may have read this before, but I didnt see anything in the forum, and wondered if anyone knows much about them? If not just for the Sovereign, did they come with the collar? Were they a later part of required attire or just optional extra? Edited October 9, 2017 by DarthZealous More information and new theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 6 hours ago, DarthZealous said: If not just for the Sovereign, did they come with the collar? As far as I know they didn`t come with the collar. Could you make a better photo (or scan) of this page. What is the name of the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 I dont know the name of the book as I dont read, or speak, Japanese, alas. Here is a better scan of the page, and the cover of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just had a closer look at the below image, and it would seem that Admiral Togo is wearing the clips also, so it would seem it is not just Japanese sovereigns who wear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 11 hours ago, DarthZealous said: I dont know the name of the book as I dont read, or speak, Japanese, alas. Here is a better scan of the page, and the cover of the book. Thanks! Nice book indeed. 6 hours ago, DarthZealous said: Just had a closer look at the below image, and it would seem that Admiral Togo is wearing the clips also, so it would seem it is not just Japanese sovereigns who wear them. He wore it both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 37 minutes ago, JapanX said: Thanks! Nice book indeed. He wore it both ways Yes indeed re Togo, but I have a theory that the pins were a later Edict whereby the collar was to be worn above the epaulettes, hence needing the pins, whereas previously the collar could be worn and fastened under the epaulettes. I note the Admiral in the image I posted looks older than he did in the image you posted, which would fit with a later decision to require the collar worn above the epaulettes. Just a theory, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Could be ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 9 hours ago, JapanX said: Could be ... I am just delighted that I got this book and found out this small, but seemingly unknown - from a western point of view - detail about the collar gradeof the Chrysanthemum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) You better take a look at this photo. Only half of the collar. So they could start using clips becase of this Edited October 11, 2017 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, JapanX said: You better take a look at this photo. Only half of the collar. So they could start using clips becase of this Interesting. I can’t help but notice that that image looks like the old ‘studio portraits’ where they used to cut the image of the sitter out along the edges and place that image on a plain background and then print or copy the new image again, in which case they would have cut of the collar medallions and links, which would have appeared at a bit of an angle in the original portrait. It would be odd, or so I think, to remove half a collar just for a portrait. I don’t know of any chivalric insignia precedent for that across any honours system for removing half a collar. The image in the book suggests that the clips were used on whole collars. This is all a rather fun mystery. Edited October 11, 2017 by DarthZealous Grammar correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) Take a good look at the epollet. Studio or no studio - there is only one link. So they doctored the epollet too? Now, regarding to what the book suggests. It suggests that there are several types of clips. Larger one for the whole chain (?) smaller for the half chain (?). Unfortunately the quality of image is too low (at least for me) to read the inscriptions. Edited October 11, 2017 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, JapanX said: Take a good look at the epollet. Studio or no studio - there is only one link. So they doctored the epollet too? With all due respect this isn’t an adversarial debate, and I would hope that we both can discuss rather than debate this. I stand by my analysis however, and the epaulette would not be “doctored” per se, but rather the rest of the collar medallion removed and shown in what would be the natural state or contour of the epaulette, had it not a collar on it. I note there are patches of blackness on the epaulette in the image you provided, and that could, maybe, represent part of the design on that section of the collar medallion. I have never seen a Chrysanthemum half collar, and I don’t know of any other Order in history where a half collar is utilised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 Well I’m more than willing to await tangible evidence of a half collar, despite never having seen any thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 This is of course just a hypothesis and I didn`t see half collars either. So it is quite possible that the photo was doctored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, JapanX said: This is of course just a hypothesis and I didn`t see half collars either. So it is quite possible that the photo was doctored. I appreciate that JapanX Further to any of that, I cant help but wonder if the Machukuo Collar of the Order of the Orchid Blossom also has a ‘clip’ or ‘pin’ given the Order’s Japanese antecedents, and whether the clips were Orchid Blossom crests. Alas this image of the Kangde Emperor offers no clues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 It's impossible to say with certainty with existing photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 minute ago, JapanX said: It's impossible to say with certainty with existing photos Yup. I agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZealous Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, JapanX said: Unfortunately the quality of image is too low (at least for me) to read the inscriptions. Here are closer visuals, in higher-res, for you JapanX Edited October 11, 2017 by DarthZealous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) Unfortunately, no dates and no additional info about regulation for these devices. Author simply describes the pictures. First picture 天皇陛下が大勲位花章頸飾を下げる際に使 用した肩章の菊花紋章は、頸飾章がず落ちないため の特株な仕掛けがしてあつた。 Second 左2個が八ネ入りの菊花紋章。 中央のボタンのよぅなものが用途不明のもの The text under 玉肩章の下にり僭 込んでいるも のが見 ... ==== He is thinking that these were the special stock. Doesn`t know for what was the central button. Edited October 11, 2017 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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