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Dear FAR32,

here is a picture of the correct 'Auflage' for the Order of the Iron Crown 3rd class

post-225-1137848202.jpg.55d610df1cc8f4d1bbdee4815d459abe.jpg

I believe this picture is from Rick Lundstrom. Sadly, most of these pictures can't be viewed anymore. I will also add this picture of a ribbonbar with swords. This is incorrect, since only the Austrians received swords. However, it is not uncommon to find Austro-Hungarian awards on German medal- and ribbonbars with added swords, crowns or a mixture of the two.

IMG-20180903-WA0032.thumb.jpg.147167b157a40492eb85594e0cb9110d.jpg

To revisit the topic of Nicholas' ribbonbar. I believe the mystery-award with swords to be the Swedish Order of the Sword. This was an uncommon, but not rare award with German pre-war officers. 

5 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

"Hardly any" 2nd classes to Germans is relative. I have 59 2nd classes with war dec. to Prussians in my files, 6 to Württembergians, 5 to Bavarians, 4 to Saxons, 74 in all.

3rd Classes - 284 to Prussians, 37 to Bavarians, 12 to Saxons, 9 to Württembergians.

 

Daniel, would you also have the numbers (ballpark) of the number of awarded MVK's to German officers?

Kind regards, Laurentius

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Hi Laurentius,

yes sure. As far as I have it:

 

1st Class:

41 to Germans (all together)

plus 2 with Brilliants

 

2nd class:

342 to Prussians (fairly complete)

36 to Bavarians (incomplete)

24 to Württemberg (incomplete)

10 to Saxons (incomplete)

 

3rd classes:

10.124 to Prussians (fairly complete)

656 to Bavaria (incomplete)

383 to Württemberg (incomplete)

135 to Saxony (incomplete)

 

Best,

Daniel

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Thank for your additional comments, thoughts and numbers, Daniel and Laurentius!

Here is a ribbon bar from my collection, which features a MVK 3rd Class with added swords on the ribbon.

Daniel, very interesting to know, that the award numbers are so low for Saxony.

IMG_1447.JPG

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Posted (edited)

@laurentius  Hello Laurentius and Daniel,

Before I comment on your observations, I must state categorically that I do NOT believe that the ribbon on Nicholas' bar is the Iron Crown.  It was member Spolei who speculated that it might be the Iron Crown, and I can understand his reasoning behind it. 

The ribbon is placed BEFORE the Austrian war ribbon, so it is logical to think that maybe it is an Iron Crown Order ribbon.  But the stripes all ALL WRONG. The blue is too dark and it does not extend to the edges. (There is still a little margin of yellow on the edges.)

On top of that, why is a Swedish order placed in front of Austrian awards on a ribbon bar made in 1940 or later!  The Swedes were a neutral power... Austria was a part of the German Empire at that point, so the Austrian awards are treated as if they are German awards.  If this was a correctly assembled ribbon bar from 1940 or later, the Austrian wartime awards would be positioned BEFORE the Hindenburg Cross.

I regret to inform you, Laurentius, that the example of the wreath-device on the ribbon bar you posted is NOT a genuine device for an Iron Crown Order. 

Note that one side of the wreath is a laurel-stalk and the other side is an oak tree branch.  The Iron Crown Order used only laurel.  Somebody sloppily cut-off the ends of these two stalks in a poor attempt to make it look like the war-wreath of a Iron Crown 2nd Class Knight.  Any experienced Austrian collector will known immediately what this wreath really is:  the Kleindekoration of the Honor Cross of the Austrian Red Cross! 

Both of you probably looked all over the internet searching for an example of a ribbon bar with a CORRECT green wreath on the Iron Crown Order ribbon representing a wartime-awarded 3rd Class Knight, but you will only find improvised examples, such as the wreath of the Wuertt. MVO or the Wuertt. GVM.

Both of you keep talking about a simple green wreath (it actually a half-wreath with an open top) representing the 3rd Class of the Iron Crown Order.  This is actually the SIMPLIFIED version of the 2nd Class Kleindekoration!

A real ribbon bar from 1940 (or later) is shown below.  @Nicholas: I am afraid I don't like your bar in post No. 1.  It does not look right to me.  On the other hand, your Saxon bar above looks very nice and very correct.     

Austrian Ribbon Bar 1940.jpg

Edited by FAR 32

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I have to admit, the discussion regarding the devices on Austrian ribbon bars is to sophisticated for my basic knowledge in this field. So I am not sure, if the group of Dr. Rudolf Mosaner could be of some help :unsure:

Mosaner, Linienschiffsarzt Dr. Rudolf Schnalle a.JPG

Mosaner, Linienschiffsarzt Dr. Rudolf Feldschnalle a.JPG

Mosaner, Linienschiffsarzt Dr. Rudolf Kettchen a.JPG

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Posted (edited)

@Komtur  Hello Komtur,

Very nice and very clean Austrian grouping.  The ribbon bar accurately bears the crossed swords of an Iron Crown Order 3rd class with War Decoration.  Was the owner a medical doctor or did he simply have a doctorate in something else?

I see you're from Prussia and I know how much you Prussian guys appreciate order and precision.  If you desire to display the awards in the correct [I believe you say] "Rangordnung" then you should move a few awards around.  For Germans, it was logical to group all war-related awards first, but not for Austrians. 

The first two awards and the Bulgarian medal are in correct positions; the other 7 are not.  The Austrian War Service Medal actually has priority over the Karl Troop Cross and the Wound Medal.  The 1918 War Commemorative and Defense of the Tirol are theoretically grouped in an "Erinnerungsmedaille/Denkmünze" category and belong behind the Jubilee medals but in front of the Wound Medal. Plus, the order of the two Jubilee medals should be switched around.  

 

@laurentius  Hello Laurentius,

I would like to show you your wreath-device next to a Red Cross Honor Badge 2nd Class so you know I was not just "whistling Dixie" when I said it had nothing to do with the Iron Crown Order.  (I actually like Dixie and I would not mind whistling it, but I can't whistle.) 

It is a real shame that somebody snipped-off the two ends of your wreath because it a rare "Luxury" version of the otherwise plain green-enameled laurel wreath for the Austrian Red Cross Honor Badge's ribbon bar ribbon.

Cheers 

 

   

    

Austrian Awards.jpg

Ö. Rote Kreuz .jpg

Edited by FAR 32

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Dear FAR32,

first of all I'd like to say that the picture of the Order of the Iron Crown with wreath is not mine. It comes from a database on this website, set up by the late Rick Lundstrom, for future research into ribbonbars. It would be an understatement to say that Rick would be excited to see this thread.

I believe we have struck a most interesting topic here (Nicholas must hate us for hijacking his thread). It doesn't surprise me that the device on the ribbonbar posted by me comes from a different medal. This was often done by tailors (as mentioned by you, with the wreath of the Wurttembergian MVO).

On 08/10/2019 at 18:43, FAR 32 said:

A real ribbon bar from 1940 (or later) is shown below. 

This is a lovely ribbonbar, one of the few originals, however, I do not think this piece is representative for Orders of the Iron Crown given to Germans, since the recipient here was Austrian (although German at the time the ribbonbar was made). I have a few more examples I'd like you to take a look at. They are pictured below (the pictures themselves do not belong to me, I do not actively collect ribbonbars).

Screenshot_2017-10-22-14-24-47-1.png.ad924b55c47566dc299d696120323588.png

IMG-20190323-WA0003-1.jpg.d038138a34ba033965705b2a8351e672.jpg

 

If what you say is true ( only improvised wreaths) than what would you say of the first of the two Order of the Iron Crowns here? It matches your description perfectly. It is only laurel, and it is half open (not opened like my previous example).

Kind regards, Laurentius

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@laurentius  & @Nicolas7507

Hello Laurentius and Nicolas,

You guys are brilliant!  You found photos of AUTHENTIC Iron Crown Orden ribbon-bar devices on the internet.  That's very impressive because these devices are very obscure and very seldom encountered.    

I was inspired by something you wrote, Laurentius.  You mentioned that Rick Researcher would have been excited to see a thread like this.  So I performed some internet research instead of simply listening to a person at Dorotheum who obviously did not entirely know what he was talking about.

Many years ago, I discovered that HUNGARIAN phaleristic scholars researched and documented K&K orders, decorations and military history much more extensively than the Austrians.  It is chiefly because the Hungarians regard the Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary (1867-1918) as a "Golden Age" in their history.  

So I accessed the online research-articles of Hungarian phaleristician Gregory Paul Sallay, which are written in Hungarian, (but thank goodness for Google-Translator!)  His research articles provide the answers to all the questions we have been discussing.

After the newly crowned Emperor Karl IV ascended the throne, enormously significant changes to the system of imperial orders and decorations were implemented by his decrees of December 13th, 1916.  One of the most significant changes was the awarding of SWORDS-ON-THE-RIBBON for Austria-Hungary's wartime orders and decorations.  

Collectors of German orders and decorations are accustomed to seeing crossed swords on a ribbon bar to indicate combatant service or, at least, service in a combat zone. This is NOT the case with Austrian-Hungarian awards.  From 1917 onward, the newly instituted Swords-On-The-Ribbon became a very big deal!  For those of you familiar with Oldenburg awards, it is akin to the ribbon-clasp "Vor dem Feinde".

Now for Swords-On-The-Ribbon for the Iron Crown Order.

According to Sallay's research, in order to become awarded Swords-On-The-Ribbon for the Order of the Iron Crown, Kaiser Karl wanted a commanding officer on any level to lead his [Austro-Hungarian] troops with "Bravery, heroic distinction and outstanding combat leadership resulting in significant strategic and/or tactical gains on the battlefield BEFORE THE ENEMY" (vor dem Feinde.) 

This would clearly explain why German officers did NOT receive Swords-On-The-Ribbon when awarded the iron Crown Order 3rd Class.  They were not commanders of Austro-Hungarian troops (i.e. platoons, companies, battalions, regiments, etc.)  The green-enameled wreath-device is obviously a way to indicate combatant status for German officers awarded the Iron Crown Order 3rd Class but who were not awarded swords-on-the-ribbon.        

      

 

Edited by FAR 32

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Just a supplement referring to the Mosaner-group:

the problem is that the bar is a mix between K.u.k. and republic.

The k.u.k. precedence would have been:

EKO.3.X, BMVM.X, KTK, VerwM, Kriegsmedaille, JM1898, JK1908 

then were added: Weltkriegserinnerungsmedaille 1914 - 18 and Tiroler Landesdenkmünze 1914 - 18.

The precedence for Bundesheer would have been:

EKO.3.X, BMVM.X, KTK, VerwM, Kriegsmedaille (this is questionable but most probably), Weltkriegserinnerungsmedaille 1914 - 18, JM1898 and JK1908. For officers and NCOs serving in Bundesheer it was not allowed to wear Tiroler Landesdenkmünze because it was not an official accepted decoration by the republic (as always in Austria they did it at all against the rules). But civilians and vets could wear it. And Morsaner was a vet and not in active service.

Bulgarian war medal would have been always on last position. 

It is remarkable that the Hindenburg-cross ist just on the ribbon bar but not the medal bar. And look at the inverted swords for the Weltkriegserinnerungsmedaille what is very strange.

Regards

Christian

 

 

Edited by Christian1962

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1 hour ago, Christian1962 said:

Just a supplement referring to the Mosaner-group:

the problem is that the bar is a mix between K.u.k. and republic.

The k.u.k. precedence would have been:

EKO.3.X, BMVM.X, KTK, VerwM, Kriegsmedaille, JM1898, JK1908 

then were added: Weltkriegserinnerungsmedaille 1914 - 18 and Tiroler Landesdenkmünze 1914 - 18.

Hello,

Based on the final Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen from the year 1917 as found in the Österreichisches Ordenshandbuch, 4. Band, 2. Auflage, the order of precedence is listed below.

Note where the War Service Medal (Kriegsmedaille) is on the list... Number 43. It would come right after the Signum Laudis on the Mosaner grouping. 

Also, the War Commemorative Medal and the Tirol Medal would have been classified as lower-level "Erinnerungsmedaillen/Denkmünzen" so it would be most appropriate to put them in the vicinity of Number 68, 69 and 70.

The Wound Medal is waaaay down there, right after where the commemorative medals would be.

Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen

1.  Orden vom Goldenen Vlies
2.  Großkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Orden
3.  Großkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
4.  Militärverdienstkreuz I. Klasse
5.  Großkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
6.  Orden der Eisernen Krone I. Klasse
7.  Großkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
8.  Kommandeurkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
9.  Kommandeurkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
10. Militärverdienstkreuz II. Klasse
11. Kommandeurkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
12. Orden der Eisernen Krone II. Klasse
13. Kommandeurkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
14. Ritterkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
15. Ritterkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
16. Ritterkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
17. Stern des Ehrenzeichens für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
18. Offizierskreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
19. Orden der Eisernen Krone III. Klasse
20. Ritterkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
21. Militärverdienstkreuz III. Klasse
22. Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz I. Klasse
23. Geistliches Verdienstkreuz I. Klasse
24. Insigne der Elisabeth-Theresien-Stiftung
25. Erinnerungszeichen an Feldmarschall Erzherzog Albrecht
26. Ehrenzeichen für Kunst und Wissenschaft
27. Geistliches Verdienstkreuz II. Klasse
28. Große Militär-Verdienstmedaille
29. Silberne Militär-Verdienstmedaille
30. Bronzene Militär-Verdienstmedaille
31. Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille
32. Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
33. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste I. Klasse
34. Offiziersehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
35. Goldenes Verdienstkreuz
36. Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille I. Klasse
37. Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille II. Klasse
38. Bronzene Tapferkeitsmedaille
39. Silbernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
40. Silbernes Verdienstkreuz
41. Eisernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
42. Eisernes Verdienstkreuz
43. Kriegsmedaille
44. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste II. Klasse
45. Erinnerungsmedaille 1864
46. Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1848
47. Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1866
48. Karl-Truppenkreuz
49. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste III. Klasse
50. Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Offiziere
51. Ehrenmedaille für 40-jährige Dienste
52. Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Offiziere
53. Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Offiziere
54. Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz II. Klasse
55. Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Mannschaften
56. Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Mannschaften
57. Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Mannschaften
58. Landsturmmedaille 1908
59. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste IV. Klasse
60. Silberne Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
61. Jubiläums-Hof-Medaille
62. Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für die bewaffnete Macht
63. Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für Zivilstaatsbedienstete
64. Jubiläumskreuz 1908
65. Militär-Jubiläumskreuz
66. Jubliäumskreuz für Zivilstaatsbedienstete
67. Gedenkzeichen an Kaiser und König Franz Joseph I.
68. Bosnisch-Hercegovinische Erinnerungsmedaille
69. Erinnerungskreuz 1912/13
70. Seereise-Denkmünze 1892/93
71. Verwundetenmedaille
72. Bronzene Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
73. Feuerwehr- und Rettungsmedaille
74. Ehrenritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens
75. Ehrenritterkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
76. Erinnerungszeichen für die Ritter vom Goldenen Sporn
77. Marianer-Halskreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
78. Donatritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens
79. Marianerkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
80. Insigne des in Tirol immatrikulierten Adels

Edited by FAR 32

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I was referring to the last order of precedence which was given out by the "liquidierendes k.u.k. Kriegsministerium" in 1918/19. You will find it in Michetschläger "Das Ordensbuch der gewesenen österreich-ungarischen Monarchie".

I tryed to make a pic but it is not of best quality, sorry for that.

It´s quite interesting because they were featuring a new Kriegserinnerungsmedaille 1914 - 1918 and a Kriegserinnungskreuz.

Regards

Christian

 

Michetschläger.jpg

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Hello Christian,

The Liquidierendes Kriegsministerium was an entity created from the remnants of the old Imperial War Ministry following the collapse of the Monarchy.  It was never officially known as the "K.u.K" Liquidierendes Kriegsministerium.

The Order of Precedence you posted is well known to Austrian phaleristicians and collectors, however, it has never been regarded as a "K.u.K" decree because at that point, there no longer existed an empire, a monarchy, an emperor, or the imperial armed forces.

This Rangordnung was issued when the Liquidierendes Kriegsministerium was a component of the Staatsamtes für Heereswesen during the Demokratische Republik Deutschösterreich (1918-1919). 

It was the first attempt to "clean-up" the decrees of 1916 and 1917 issued by Kaiser Karl and was primarily intended for the Deutschösterreichische Volkswehr. 

The "Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen" of 1917 that I posted above represents the one and only final imperial decree approved and issued by Kaiser Karl himself through the Imperial War Ministry.            

   

   

Edited by FAR 32

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