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Alan Baird

PC 881 Edward Watkins City of London Police

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Posted (edited)

Found this photograph of King's Block (building on the left), then made the below images which I thought might be of interest? 

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King's Block c1880 map photo.jpg

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Edited by bigjarofwasps

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Hi,

I always think it is interesting, the old newspaper accounts about what happened in 1888 and I have not seen that Seatte Daily Times article before but it is very interesting.

The one point I would highlight is the fact that.........''PC 881 Edward Watkins did not blow his whistle on that famous night.

On day 1, Thursday the 4th of October in 1888, at the inquest on the death of Catherine Eddowes, Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins stated, ''I did not sound the alarm. We do not carry whistles.'' 

This is one very obvious area where the City of London Police trailed behind the Metropolitan Police in the introduction and issuing of Police whistles, as a means of summoning assistance.

On day 2, Friday the 5th of October in 1888, at the inquest on the death of Catherine Eddowes, the night watchman of Messrs. Kearlay & Tonge's Tea warehouse in Mitre Square, Mr George James Morris stated, ''I ran up Mitre Street into Aldgate blowing my whistle all the while.'' George James Morris was a retired Metropolitan Policeman and even he had a Police whistle and so when PC 881 Edward Watkins requested his help in obtaining assistance, he was able to complete that task successful. 

There is a well known newspaper sketch of PC 881 Edward Watkins raising the alarm by blowing his whistle and I think this is where most of the confusion began, in regard to how the alarm was raised on that very famous night. It was Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins who guarded the body and crime scene and who delegated George Morris to raise the alarm and to get further assistance.

 

 

 

The photograph of King's Block is excellent.

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Posted (edited)

Here's another article to pretty much the same effect.

It's interesting how the facts have become so convoluted.........

Recollections of Det. Insp. Robert Sagar, City of London Police.

As you know, the perpetrator of these outrages was never brought to justice, but I believe he came the nearest to being captured after the murder of the woman Kelly in Mitre-square. A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square, and a few moments after fell over the body. He blew his whistle, and other officers running up, they set off in pursuit of the man who had just left. The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night. 
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905.

Sagar is not unique in his confused recollections. Pretty much every bobby who claimed to have been involved in some capacity in the case, who has put pen to paper, has gone on to document a catalogue of errors. It all makes for ripping reading but is frustrating to say the least, for us to try and confirm facts some 130 odd years later. 

 

I believe it was Frederick WENSLEY who claims to have come up with the idea of rubber on the soles of their boots? 

Edited by bigjarofwasps

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My apologies ………………………………….it has only just clicked...………………..the importance of King's Block and the events in Mitre Square in 1888. City Police Constable 882 Joseph Phipps and his family were residing at King's Block in 1891 and this is confirmed by the England Census of 1891. It is certainly possible the Phipps family were residing there earlier and maybe even in late 1888. It would be great if you could find some documentation which pointed in that direction ie baptism record etc. Maybe even in his City of London personal file, if one exists. Police Constable 882 Joseph Phipps could have been holding back the crowds in Mitre Square or he could have been at home with his family in King's Block and seen the events begin to unravel outside. 

Either way it could be a win, win, for your story.

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Hello,

This is another City of London Police Constable that served at approximately the same time as PC 881 Edward Watkins. It can be interesting to compare their police careers. Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven served in the City of London Police from 1879 to 1904 and he was considered to be a very good policeman and he had only two minor infringements in his personal records ie in 1880 and 1886 refer. 

John Stephen Raven was born in Lambeth, in London, in 1855.

In the England Census of 1861, John is 6 years old and his father William Raven [36] is listed as being employed as a carpenter and the family are residing with William Raven [84/carpenter] at 12 Devonshire Street, Trinity Newington and who is John Stephen Raven's grandfather.

In the England Census of 1871, John is 16 and listed as being employed as a carpenter, just like his father and grandfather and the family are residing in Wandsworth All Saints.

On the 9th of January in 1879, John Stephen Raven joins the City of London Police, collar number 811, warrant number 5266. I believe he may have been stationed at Cripplegate. [ See later census records - he is residing in this area.]

John Stephen Raven was described in 1879 as being :- [a] 5 feet and 11 inches tall. grey eyes. [c] Brown hair. [d] fair complexion. [e] Single.

On the 13th of March in 1879, 'Certificated fit for the Service,'  rate of pay 25 shillings per week.

On the 19th of June in 1879, John Stephen Raven marries Hannah Eliza Hench at Tooting Graveney, in Wandsworth.

On the 18th of March in 1880, 'Advanced to 2nd Class rate of pay of 28 shillings per week.'

On the 9th of September in 1880...………...Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven was disciplined for, 'neglecting to report or take any steps respecting a fire,'  reprimanded and cautioned.

In the England Census of 1881, Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven and his wife Hannah are residing at the family home at 31 New Union Street, in St Giles Without Cripplegate.

On the 15th of November in 1883, 'Advanced to 1st Class rate of pay of 31 shillings and 6 pence per week.'

On the 7th of June in 1885, John Stephen Raven and Hannah Eliza Raven baptised their new-born daughter Grace Edith Raven and the records record the family home as being at 31 New Union Street, in Cripplegate.

On the 23rd of September in 1886...……… Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven was disciplined for, 'not taking to Station a P.O. Savings Bank Book found by a boy and handed to him,' awarded the loss of one day's leave. [Maybe he personally returned the Savings Book to the owner/maybe he was hoping for a reward/who's knows?]

In 1887, Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven was awarded the Queen Victoria City of London Police Jubilee medal for 1887, for being on duty during Queen Victoria's parade through London.

In 1888 during the, 'Jack the Ripper murders,' Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven was serving with the City of London Police and may have been stationed at Cripplegate.

On the 16th of September in 1889, Police Constable 811 John Raven gave evidence at the Old Bailey trial of James Dysen on theft and simple larceny charges. It would appear that Police Constable 811 John Raven took the prisoner to Seething Lane Police Station and the prisoner was late found guilty and was sentenced to 12 month's hard labour.

On the 29th of September in 1890, 'Awarded a 15% pay increase to 36 shillings and 3 pence per week.' [I believe the Police pay had fallen so far behind that they had to greatly increase the basic pay and therefore they received a 15% increase.] 

In the England Census of 1891, we find that Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven and Hannah E Raven and their daughter are residing at 26 New Union Street, St Giles, Cripplegate.

In 1897, Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven was awarded the Queen Victoria City of London Clasp for 1897, for being on duty during Queen Victoria's parade through London.

On the 15th of November in 1900, 'pay increase to 40 shillings per week.'

On the 12th of December in 1900, 'Advanced to Merit Class of Pay of 42 shilling and 6 pence per week.'

In 1902, Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven was awarded the City of London Coronation medal for 1902, for being on duty during the Coronation Parade. This medal is missing and out there somewhere.

On the 14th of January in 1904, Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven retired  on a pension of £66.10s.7d.and his conduct was officially recorded as being, 'Very Good.'

In the England Census of 1911, we find that John Stephen Raven is now recorded as being a, 'Police Pensioner and Gatekeeper.' The family home is located at 23 Barnsbury Park, in Islington.

On the 22nd of April in 1930, John Stephen Raven dies in London.

[Police Constable 811 John Stephen Raven appears to have been a very steady and reliable and professional Police Constable and this appears to be confirmed by the initial research which has been done. I originally 'e' mailed the 'Enquiry Team' with the 'London Metropolitan Archives' to confirm that there was a personal file available on him. I then paid a £20 fee to obtain the breakdown of what was in his personal file/costs for photocopying and therefore you only need to order what you think is important. L.M.A. excellent but could get expensive.]

 

 

 

 

 

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Cracking write up on PC RAVEN Alan!!

Interesting that he lived on New Union Street, PC PHIPPS lived there in 1871.

 

Wonder whether this was a block of Bobby addresses?

 

That being said could RAVEN have in fact been stationed at Bishops Gate? 

New Union Street.jpg

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Hi,

That's is one of my big weak spots......London topography......I don't connect between the locations.

It would be very nice if PC 881 Watkins, PC 882 Phipps and PC 811 Raven were all serving at Bishopsgate/Bishopsgate Street.

New Union Street appears to be in Cripplegate/Station More Lane area [I think]  but at the trial in 1889, PC Raven took the prisoner back to the police station and City Detective Henry Costin then interviewed the prisoner at Seething Lane Station/Tower Street. So maybe that is important. I suppose you could live and work in the City of London Police area and be stationed at almost any of their stations. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

The good thing is that we might find out more, about these 3 Constable's, at some latter stage.

 

 

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Hi,

This is just a bit of fun regarding a postcard and its indirect connection with the, 'Jack the Ripper story.'

This is an early postcard that was sent on the 13th of November in 1902. The sender was, ''S H Joseph, Bookseller,13 Newnham Street, Goodman's Field, London E'' and related to the forwarding of a sales catalogue. The postcard measured four and a half inches by three and a half inches. 

I am sure Ripperologists will recognise the address.

Albert Backert wrote more than a dozen newspaper articles, mainly between 1888-1889, regarding Jack the Ripper.

Albert Backert also took over from Mr George Lusk as the Chairman of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee in 1889.

By all accounts Albert Bachert appears to have enjoyed basking in the publicity relating to Jack the Ripper,

In the England Census of 1881 and the England Census of 1891, we find that Albert Bachert is residing in the family home at 13 Newnham Street, Goodman's Fields, in London E. Albert's parents are of German origin and his father is a successful tailor. Albert Bachert is recorded as being employed as an, 'art engraver or copper plate engraver.'  [various spellings of his surname]

In 1891, Albert Bachert was arrested in a butchers shop in Whitechapel for being drunk and disorderly and was found guilty and fined by the court. This conviction infuriated Albert Bachert especially as he appears to have had a high opinion of his own self-importance. There are numerous other stories regarding Albert Bachert but after the mid-1890's he disappears from the newspaper columns of the London Press. I would also suggest this is also probably the same period when he leaves 13 Newnham Street, Goodman's Field in London E.

Obviously, Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins and the other Police Constables previously mentioned, would read the daily newspapers and probably knew the local characters like Albert Bachert, They may not have known him personally but I would suspect they would have known his name and reputation.

I have included a sketch and photographs of the postcard etc. All just fun and speculation. 

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Hi,

Police Constable 353 James Saveall served in the City of London Police, in approximately, the same period as Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins. There is a previous entry regarding PC 353 James Saveall. The research recorded below, on this Police Constable's career, specifically examines his rewards/disciplinary records and to try and get an insight into City of London Police life in Victorian London. 

James Saveall was born in Rainham, in Essex, in 1852.

On the 5th of March in 1874, James Saveall joins the City of London Police. James was 21 years and 3 months old, had brown hair, hazel eyes, a fair complexion and was 5 feet 9 inches in height. James Saveall's previous occupation was recorded as being a, 'porter.'

Police Constable Saveall was issued with the collar number of 353 and the warrant number of 4798.

30/8/1875. Absent from his fixed point [SE end of St Martins-Le-Grand] ……….Admonished.

20/11/1876. Absent from Special Post, 15 minutes ……….to forfeit his next fortnightly leave.

20/10/1879. Old Bailey trial of Charles Williams for theft and pocketpicking and stealing 9 shillings and 9 pence. Police Constable 353 James Saveall arrested the prisoner. The prisoner was found guilty and sentenced to 7 years penal servitude.

10/12/1879. Sitting down in a shop whilst on duty ……….to forfeit his next fortnightly leave.

6/10/1881. Granted 14 days leave, on full pay, upon the Surgeon's recommendations.

23/12/1883. Sitting in a room and gossiping with a watchman ……….reduced to 2nd class of pay for 6 months. [No community policing or Christmas spirit there.]

21/2/1885. Granted 14 days leave, on full pay, upon the Surgeon's recommendation.

12/6/1886. Taking malt liquor whilst on duty ……….pardoned. [Lucky chappy.]

9/8/1886. Absent from part of his beat for 15 minutes ……….to forfeit one days fortnightly leave. [They must have been allowed, 'call on nature breaks?']

11/6/1887. Neglecting to discover a padlock unfast all night ……….reduced to 2nd class of pay for 6 months. [That is actually quite a heavy financial penalty over a six months period.]

In 1887, Police Constable James Saveall was awarded the Queen Victoria City of London Jubilee medal for being on duty during the Queen's Parade through London.

In 1888 whilst the Jack the Ripper murders were occurring James Saveall suffered a personal tragedy ie between October and December his wife died and he was left to raise their children alone. This would have been an extremely difficult time for Police Constable James Saveall.

15/8/1889. Awarded 10 shillings for conspicuous courage shown in arresting a man for furious driving. [Good one James.]

16/12/1890. Granted 21 days sick leave on full pay.

26/10/1891. Neglecting to take steps when informed that a youth had taken poison ……….admonished. [Obviously there is more to the story as he is only 'admonished.']

6/2/1894. Absent from his special post and inside a railway station for the purpose of drinking ……….reduced to 2nd class. [That was silly.]

In 1897, there is a newspaper report regarding a City of London Police sporting event and James Saveall participates in the 100m veterans handicap and is given a 16 yard start but unfortunately he does not win the race.

In 1897, Police Constable James Saveall was awarded the Queen Victoria City of London Clasp for being on duty during the Queen's Parade through London.

9/3/1899. Retired on pension from the City of London Police and his conduct was recorded as being, 'Good.' Police Constable James Saveall was issued with the collar numbers of 353, and then 221 and finally his collar number was 380.

On the 1st of December in 1938, James Saveall aged 86, dies on the Isle of Ely.

 

 

 

 

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Hi,

I always thought that both the City of London Police and the Metropolitan Police would have done many things in a similar fashion/manner.

For example, when Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins joined the City of London Police, he started as a Police Constable Class 3...…..and obviously by gaining experience and over time he became a Police Constable Class 2 and finally a Police Constable Class 1. This is the same rank/pay structure that was also used by the Metropolitan Police. After each increase in the individuals Class within the rank of Police Constable, this would result in an increase in the weekly pay of that Police Constable.

Police Constable 108 William Theodore Males joined the City of London Police on the 22nd of June in 1894 and was ''forced to resign'' on the 30th of November in 1903. 

Therefore Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins and Police Constable 108 William Theodore Males careers overlapped for approximately 2 years, from 1894 to 1896.

It is interesting to note that when Police Constable 108 William Theodore Males joined the City of London Police in 1894, there were now 7 levels of pay within the rank of Police Constable. The initial joining level and then advancing to level 6 and then eventually up to level 1. It took Police Constable 108 William Theodore Males approximately 6 years to reach the level 1 pay scale.

I have included two photographs which highlight the above. 

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Here are some general details about Police Constable William Theodore Males directly from his City of London records.

William Theodore Males was born in Hitchin, in Hertfordshire, in 1874.

William also served in the 1st Hertfordshire Volunteer from August of 1888 to March in 1893.

There is a previous entry on this thread that also gives his family details etc.

Later I will include his commendations/punishments records because it might be interesting to examine them against the commendations/punishments records of Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins.

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It will be easier to deal with his ''Rewards & Commendation'' first and then later list his punishments.

These actions give an insight into the man himself...…...

24/6/1896. Awarded ten shillings for courageous conduct in stopping a runaway horse. [always a very dangerous situation - well done William Theodore Males]

23/7/1900. Commended for intelligence shown in bringing to justice a man who had committed a robbery on G.N.Ry. [Great Northern Railway]

 

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William Theodore Males.

Discipline and Punishment Records...………………..

5/1/1899. 2 minutes late for the 7.45am muster and using improper language to his sergeant. [Forfeit 3 days leave.]

22/2/1899. Late 19 minutes at the 5.40am muster. [Promotion retarded during the Commissioner's pleasure.]

I sure they would only have had a pocket watch available, to ensure they woke up on time, to prepare and then get to their work. Maybe neighbours also knocked on each others doors to ensure individuals were awake. No radio alarm clocks in those days so it is understandable that mistakes are going to be made but discipline is discipline. These are more minor offences.

22/2/1902. Being inside the Girlder's  Arms Public House for the purposes of drinking whilst on duty. [Fined 5 shillings.]

Rather silly and Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins also suffered a similar fate on several occasions.

5/7/1903. Quarrelling and fighting with Police Constable 115 Gough whilst on duty and in plain clothes. [Not to be employed on plain clothes duty.]

This appears to be the start of more serious offences.

It would be interesting to know if Police Constable 115 Gough had the same punishment placed in his record. This offence seems to be a much more serious. It would obviously effect his chances of promotion and I believe there were additional allowances for those Policemen serving on plain clothes duties.

28/11/1903.Drunk and disorderly in the Magpie Public House, 12 New Street whilst in plain clothes and off duty. [Required to Resign.]

There is much more to this story but I will add it in separately.

I have attached both the discipline record sheets of both William T Males and Edward Watkins.  

 

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The Incident...…………………

At approximately 4 to 5pm on the 28th of November in 1903, William Theodore Males enters the Magpie Public House which is located at 12 New Street, Bishopsgate Street.  William has a strong build and is over five feet and ten inches in height. He is known to the manager of the Public House because he lives nearby.

William is very drunk and therefore they refused to sell him any more drink. William becomes very abusive and uses obscene language and then refused to leave the premises.

At approximately 5.40pm District Inspector Chapman is informed of the situation and attends the Magpie Public House. District Inspector Chapman with the assistance of the Public House manager, manages to remove William from the premises. The Inspector then accompanies William home and tells him to, ''go upstairs to his wife/home.'' 

Being of unsound drunk mind, William then abuses his wife when she opens the front door and then returns to the Magpie Public House.

This time District Inspector Chapman brings along a Police Sergeant with him to the Magpie Public House and with great difficulty and much violence and swearing they take William Theodore Males back to the Police Station. A doctor is called to confirm that William is indeed suffering from intoxication.

William Theodore Males fate is sealed and he is later formally ''required to resign.''

But there is a happy ending to the story because in the England Census of 1911, William Theodore Males is employed as a, ''Persian carpet salesman'' and he is still living with his wife and family. 

The funny thing is that they are still residing at the family home at 3/4 New Street, near the Magpie Public House and so the question would be ''does he still frequent the Magpie Public House.''

Alan.

 

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