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His austrian Franz-Joseph-Orden-Großkreuz just appeared at Weitze too. Again he doubled the price and its already reserved. What I find interesting is that he upgraded it with the missing sash. That isn't mentioned in the description. What is your your opinion, should such things be mentioned when done?

(There is still the option that the sash was hidden under the bed, but thats very unlikely as the other grand crosses at the auction were all displayed with the sash)

At the auction:

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1105-01_yceurv.jpg

At Weitze:

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image.thumb.png.c738eb3e7c382bc50fd3b8e395d961a5.png

image.png.66f40a25ef518a48738f32d02485b461.png

 

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Dear Utgardloki,

adding a ribbon isn't a bad thing in my opinion, whether it's a sash for a grandcross or just a bit of ribbon for a regular medal. I know that I do, and that other collectors too, have a list of ribbons they want to buy for medals they have. Adding a ribbon just completes the picture. I agree that there should be a mention that the sash is not original to the star.

Kind regards, Laurentius

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In my opinion with unnamed pieces it isn't a problem at all, you never know, they could even be completely put together. But at pieces with provenance it should be mentioned. When I buy a piece that as given to xy I want to be sure that all pieces were really given to xy. I personally do also add things but I do additionally to my notations add a card to the etui were such things are written on.

Generally I would like to add some thoughts: It always hurts my stomach when I see such extraordinary groups (e.g. the whole Leonrod group) being separated. But I understand that a whole group would be hardly sellable and most likely the next owner (maybe a seller rather than a collector) tears them apart. Only a donation to a museum could prevent a separation...  But somehow annoying is in my opinion that some collectors pay thousands of euros for e.g. a grand cross and then don't by the corresponding document (which are in different lots most time). The probability that the provenance gets lost over time is quite high.

At least at medal bars its a very practical that most german bars are sewn together. Austrian bars or groups are much harder to find as they aren't sewn together most times. (For the Leonrod bar there even was a lot with the etuis to the bar, they will most likely never come together again)

I personally love to know who was the recipient of a decoration, thats half of its meaning beside craftmanship, look and rareness. Just collecting for the "Bling" is somehow disrespectfull to the recipient at least in my opinion.

Edited by Utgardloki
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Dear Utgardloki,

I have seen often in the past how even being sown down isn't enough to save a history.

39 minutes ago, Utgardloki said:

At least at medal bars its a very practical that most german bars are sewn together. Austrian bars or groups are much harder to find as they aren't sewn together most times. (For the Leonrod bar there even was a lot with the etuis to the bar, they will most likely never come together again)

A German collector who is also active on this forum ( I have sadly forgotten his name) owned several named high-ranking medalbars. When they were stolen when he was at a concert they were reported to the police, as someone would normally do. Months later he heard that airport-photos proved the had been shipped off to Turkey, to be cut up. 

Sometimes when I'm browsing GMIC, WAF or Facebook I come across a medalbar which I recognize, either from an auctionhouse a few years ago, or perhaps a reference-book. Sadly, when I'm browsing dealers, auctionsites or Ebay I see medalbars without medals, and I recall seeing them earlier, still in their full glory. 

I have been know to be a bit of a purist when it comes to splitting up groups and adding things together, but I don't regard the adding of ribbons as wrong, but something necessary to show how it looked 100 years ago. These kinds of questions, important questions, form the centre of the ethics of the collector. What is, and what is acceptable in this collection-area, and how far one should go to achieve profit?

Kind regards, Laurentius

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On 29/05/2019 at 15:47, laurentius said:

A German collector who is also active on this forum ( I have sadly forgotten his name) owned several named high-ranking medalbars. When they were stolen when he was at a concert they were reported to the police, as someone would normally do. Months later he heard that airport-photos proved the had been shipped off to Turkey, to be cut up. 

I have gone through the thread, horrible. That must be the worst case for any collector beside a fire. If I remember correctly it was the same thief, who stole the items out of Hohenschwangau castle in Bavaria (only half went back to the castle, if there aren't new informations already)

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Dear Utgardloki,

1 minute ago, Utgardloki said:

 have gone through the thread, horrible. That must be the worst case for any collector beside a fire. If I remember correctly it was the same thief, who stole the items out of Hohenschwangau castle in Bavaria (only half went back to the castle, if there aren't new informations already)

We are heading to the macabre part of collection-ethics here, but I feel that a fire is less troubling than theft. This only goes for metal decorations and awards ofcourse, it would be terrible for uniforms, paintings and portraits. Depending on the size of the fire and the airflow most medals would survive. Sure, most enameled and painted orders would have lost their recognizable part, not to mention the multi-constructed orders which use Schlelack (wax) to stay together like my beloved Albrechtsorden. Medals would survive the fire, how well they'd survive ofcourse fully depends on the material and the fire. Hindenburg lost almost all of his awards when his house burned down in the early 20's, yet I think most collectors would give a kidney to own one of these scorched medals (I'd like mine medium-rare please).

Theft, in my opinion is far worse, when a fire hits, regardless of it's magnitude you'll always have a part of the collection which survives, which can't be said for theft, especially with cases being solved at a historical low (thanks Obama). I shudder at the thought of a medalbar being destroyed by thiefs (or collectors) solely for the purpose of profit. Often these medalbars are the last remaining piece of someone, and with it's destruction, they too, long after their death, cease to be. They live as long as we remember them, and in a way, honour them. That's the part which makes this hobby so great for me, there are lots of guys (and some girls) doing their best, reconstructing awardrolls, identifying medal- and ribbonbars, bringing back life to this great war.

Kind regards, Laurentius

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