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Kriegsmarine Admiral

Vizeadmiral Joachim Lietzmann - Spanish Awards

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Hello,

Lietzmann can be seen wearing 3 Breast Stars on the photo. The one below the Iron Cross 1st Class (marked with #2) is the Breast Star of the Croatian Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir 1st Class with Star and Oak Leaves.
The one right of the Iron Cross 1st Class (marked with #1) is the Spanish Order of Naval Merit (possibly the 3rd class that had a smaller breast star than the 4th class (Grand Cross)). Is this correct?
The Breast Star on his right side of the chest (marked with #3) is unknown. I think it could also be the Spanish Order of Naval Merit, but this time the 4th class (Grand Cross) that had a bigger Breast Star than the 3rd Class. Can anyone confirm this? Or is it a different award?
The curious thing is why would he wear both classes of the same award (Spanish Order of Naval Merit) and not just the highest class, i.e. the Grand Cross?

Lietzmann's ribbon bar also suggests he was awarded the Spanish Order of Military Merit, but the exact class is unknown. Could one of the Breast Stars be that award?

Lietzmann, Joachim - Vizeadmiral King Zvonimir Crown2.jpg

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Posted (edited)

No way to confirm this unknown star as the photo does not give much to go on.

It could be the Spanish Order of Military Merit in Red, given what is represented on his ribbon bar, but the ribbon bar does not confirm the grade of award. Given this though, it is probably a more plausible theory than a higher grade of the Naval Merit Order which is not impossible but less likely.

Another alternative is a foreign order unaccounted for/unknown thus far. For example, if it weren't for this photo above we would not know he was awarded the Croatian Order of King Zvonimir. It's not represented on his ribbon bar.

Edited by P.F.

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I agree, but look at this other photo of Lietzmann below. The Breast Star is clearly the Grand Cross of the Spanish Order of Naval Merit in my opinion. It has the wider and bigger points then the #1 on the photo above (which is supposed to be the 3rd Class of the Spanish Order of Naval Merit, and not the Grand Cross given it's smaller size, compare the points of the star).

And the size of #3 Breast Star (and the points) is identical to the Breast Star on this photo below.

Joachim Lietzmann (4).jpg

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I was just comparing the sizes!! Great minds. ;) 

Is there an award date for the one pictured above? Could one be awarded by the Spanish Royals and the other by Franco? The one in the first photo looks smaller.

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Posted (edited)

There is no date, but we know that Lietzmann was the Standing Naval-Attaché for Spain from 24 March 1936 until November 1936 (so he was the Naval-Attaché for a short period of time before the Civil War broke out in July).

You theory is very plausible, but I don't understand why Franco would award Lietzmann with the same class of the award (Grand Cross) if he already received it from the Royal Family.

To me the #1 Breast Star from the first photo still looks smaller than the Grand Cross breast star and in my opinion it is the 3rd Class of the Spanish Naval Order.

It wouldn't make sense #3 is the Order of Military Merit because it looks like the Grand Cross breast star, so the #1 he is wearing would be the only Spanish Order of Naval Merit he is wearing, and like I said above, to me it looks like #1 is the 3rd Class and not the Grand Cross (4th Class).

Edited by Kriegsmarine Admiral

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At this time, I only found in the Marine Gazette the concession of the Cross of 2nd class to Joachim Lietzmann and Paul Weber in 23.1.1932

I belive that the number 2 are not spanish

 

This is a 2nd Cross up to 4.931. The 1932 model has a republican crown, not a royal crown 

 

 

omnadb2.jpg

Sin título.jpg

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On the first photo, Number 2 is the Breast Star  of the Croatian Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir 1st Class with Oak Leaves.

What is your opinion:

On the class of Number 1?

And what is the Breast Star Number 3?

What is the class of the Breast Star on the second photo of Lietzmann I posted?

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Posted (edited)

I found your image and the cross number 1 on the fitst photo and the breast star of the second cross I believe that are the same, a cross of 2nd class

448da51e2b03bea24e8406070f8c2d5fo.jpg

In other forums include the meda bar of Joachim Lietzmann and have perhaps a spanish Military Merit Cross with red badge

 

con-japos.jpg

Edited by Antonio Prieto

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Antonio, so you think the #1 on the first photo and the breast star on the second photo are the Spanish Order of Naval Merit 2nd Class? But which type? 1931—1939? If yes, did that class have the breast star in that period?

So, you have no idea about #3 on the first photo?

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Yes, I believe that the #1 on the first photo and the breast star on the second photo are the Spanish Order of Naval Merit 2nd Class, white divisionm type 1931-1938

I can't see the crown in the first picture

In the second photo I think I see the mural crown, which would correspond to the concession in 1932. This crown would cease to be used in Spain from 1938, moving it through another open royal also known as imperial, which in turn would be used until 1977

Attached the type of 1931-1938

1827288l.jpg

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Antonio Prieto said:

Yes, I believe that the #1 on the first photo and the breast star on the second photo are the Spanish Order of Naval Merit 2nd Class, white divisionm type 1931-1938

I can't see the crown in the first picture

In the second photo I think I see the mural crown, which would correspond to the concession in 1932. This crown would cease to be used in Spain from 1938, moving it through another open royal also known as imperial, which in turn would be used until 1977

Attached the type of 1931-1938

1827288l.jpg

Ok, thank you. To be clear, the classes of the 1931-1938 type were: Grand Cross (4th Class), 3rd Class, 2nd Class, 1st Class and Silver Cross? Correct? So the 2nd Class had the Silver Breast Star like on your photo above.

Do you have any ideas about #3 on the first photo? Is it possible it's the Spanish Order of Military Merit? We can see from his ribbon bar he had it.

Edited by Kriegsmarine Admiral

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Yes, the classes of the Naval Order of Merit since 1866 type were: Grand Cross (4th Class), 3rd Class, 2nd Class, 1st Class and Silver Cross (since 1871)
Only changes the crown in some periods:
Royal crown: monarchie 1866-1871, 1874-1931, 1977-today
Mural crown: republican peridods: 1871-1874 and 1931-1939 (spanish civil war, in use in republican zone up to 1.4.1939)
Imperial crown: general Franco dictadure: 1938-1977

The 2nd Class had the Silver Breast Star (1931-1938) as the photo

I dont have idea about #3 on the first photo, will be the Spanish Order of Military Merit, but I dont sure. The image does not allow to see the details

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