Duputy Inspector General Mainwaring, Madras Police.

[bigjarofwasps]

Interesting KPM currently up for auction on Ebay, but you'll need deep pockets..................

eBay item number: 323945628353

Important King's Police Medal (Fire Service) group attributed to Norman Coombs, Chief of the Bombay Municipal Fire Service King's Police Medal for Distinguished Service (Fire Brigade) LG: 01/01/1938 p.20:- Norman Coombs, Chief Officer of the Bombay Municipal Fire Brigade in presentation case with original and replacement ribbons. Medal is unnamed as issued and therefore sold as attributed to, rather than awarded to. Silver Jubilee Medal 1935 with presentation certificate from the Viceregal Lodge, Simla by Command of His Majesty the King-Emperor, 6th May, 1935.  Medal in box as issued Coronation Medal 1937 with presentation certificate from the Viceregal Lodge, Simla by Command of His Majesty the King-Emperor, 12th May, 1937. Medal in box as issued Although Coombs received his KPM in 1938, he rose to fame in on 14th April, 1944 when the SS Fort Siskine, carrying a heavy load of ammunition blew up in Bombay Harbour with 1,376 casualties, including 64 firemen killed and 83 injured.  An account of this terrible incident is contained in "The Great Bombay Explosion" by John Ennis, a copy of which is included in this sale

[paul wood]

I know of this seller who goes under a collective name for birds of prey. He says unnamed as issued. I have several Indian KPMs from 1909 to circa 1940 NONE of mine are unnamed and £800 is obviously designed to lure an idiot who knows Rockall Shannon and Hebrides about medals. It is sellers like this who give Ebay its deservedly bad name as a haven for sharks and crooks

The seller is also illiterate as he has frequently offered Tibets and early IGS 08s but is incapable of deciphering the running script which they are named in (if he reads this forum I will happily decipher them at £10 per medal (easy beer money) which I find most frustrating although it may be because they are crap ranks from crap units and is hoping someone might think they are sleepers. If any member of this forum  buys this KPM I would be happy to contribute financially towards their psychiatric treatment. 

All the best

Paul 

[Alan Baird]

Hi,

''Your words of wisdom and warning, I believe, have been heard loud and clear and are much appreciated.''

There is a point I would like to make about the Deputy Inspector General Norman Mainwaring's medals and other items. When these items were originally sold by the Auction House and bought by a dealer and I must stress that both of these companies are very good and reputable companies, there was a flag with the group. 

It was a ''Khalafat Flag'' which was given by the Madras Government and was officially listed as being presented to Deputy Inspector General Norman Mainwaring. The flag, I believe, was captured on the first day of the Rebellion when the ''Khalafat Standard Bearer'' was killed. Deputy Inspector General Norman Mainwaring was one of those who led the charge and his Police company was responsible for killing this flag bearer. The flag must have meant a great deal to him because it remained with the other items for so long.

I understand the pressures on the dealers and that they are commercial businesses and have many overheads and expenses which must be met. Items therefore must also be commercially viewed and split up, if necessary but I would have never have divided these medals from the flag and sold them off separately. The medals and flag had a strong connection and story but the flag on its own does not have the same meaning.

This is just my opinion in this particular case. 

 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

I agree Alan, it’s a travesty when groups like this are split up for financial gain. I’ve lost count of how many EBay sellers I’ve contacted about the woes of splitting groups up. 

[paul wood]

Alan, Wasp,

I see the problem.

An auctioneer's, and I speak from personal experience, primary duty, or should be, is to act in the best interests  of his vendor. With medals I can think of several examples where the whole ensemble has had to be split up for the vendor's benefit.

1) dress miniatures, normally these would be kept with the full-sized. However when they are worth a few hundred pounds or more then they should be separated but sold as the following lot as some medal  collectors are not interested in miniatures and any they acquire they will pass on and miniature collectors do not want the full-sized The classic example  is the DFC, Order of Lenin Group to W/C Ramsbottom Isherwood where the miniatures were sold for a few thousand to  different buyer to the full-sized. In that case I felt especially justified as all money received was towards care for vendor.

2) Early portrait miniatures, some Waterloo, Peninsular or early Indian medals come with contemporary portrait miniatures the majority of which, to miniature collectors, are worth no more than a few hundred and therefore will get a better added value from the medal collector who tends to factor them in at 500-1000 pounds above the value of the medal(s). One one occasion however we had an officer's Waterloo with a portrait miniature by one of the best contemporary miniarturists and was valued at £3000-4000. It was sold at Sotheby's realising the mid estimate, bought by the buyer of the medal, as we had added a footnote that Portrait miniature was included in a separate sale, the underbidders were  all picture dealers as I bid on behalf of my client.

3) Photographs and documents. Especially  in the case of Polar and exploration related medals there can be archives, diaries or photographs, in many cases worth many times more than the medals. These will perform better in specialist travel sales at places like Sotheby's. Obviously their sale details will be mentioned in the footnote of the medal catalogued and vice-versa in the travel catalogue. We have had polar archives with a medal which have sold for 5 figure sums.

Were we to have sold these items together and the aggregate price were considerably lower we would rightfully have been liable to litigation for not acting in our vendor's best interest.

I have no idea as to the value of the Khalafat standard. Had it been £200 or under I would have kept it with the medals on the principal that most medal collectors would value it at that as an interesting part of the group.

While auction houses should try and help their buyers they also have (and several cases that have come to court confirm this) a duty of due diligence to their vendor.

I hope that has cleared things up.

All the best,

Paul

 

[Alan Baird]

Hi Paul,

I totally agree and understand what you are saying.

The auction house that sold Deputy Inspector General Norman Mainwaring medals and other items also kept the flag with these items and therefore they were all sold together. The decision made economic sense for the auction house and for their client.

The dealer that purchased them, then sells them separately. The dealer is running a commercial business and therefore has to obtain the best price for his purchases. The decision to sell them separately made economic sense for the dealer. 

My point is that it is sad from a collectors or historic point of view that the items are no longer together.  

Alan.     

 

[paul wood]

I am afraid that any dealer worth his salt would wait until the main item, the KPM was sold and offer the buyer the opportunity to buy the other items available. If he says no, fine,sell seperately. I would have sold my soul to the infernal one to have a relic like that with the medals.

Paul