Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Could this pin belong to a Freikorps group ?

I don't think it's the "Z"of  Zorro ... :) 

benten.

1P1620691ok daC w.jpg

3P1620685 zijkant adC w.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zeppelin...…..could be a possibility . 

Thank you for your reply. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think such pins existed for everything from the Bee Keepers association, to the Local Carnival group to Freikorps.... if an unidentified pin pops up there is maybe a 0.034% chance it has a FK association....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only Freikorps organization that may have worn the badge " Z " was ZEGROST which is what the Zentrale Grenzschutz Ost (Headquarters Border Protection East) was called.  This organization supervised the operations of all the other Freikorps organizations that patrolled the eastern border with Poland.  The original name of this organization was "Army High Command of Homeland Defense in the East". But the Germans had to rename it because the Poles were offended by that name.  So they came up with a new name: "Zentrale Grenzschutz Ost" which was shortened to ZEGROST.   

Edited by Simius Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/11/2019 at 02:01, Simius Rex said:

Well, if Mr. Winkler doesn't even know what the Z stands for, there appears little hope of ever finding out.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/132120696160

Well, while Kai Winkler is an experienced knowledgeable dealer, he's hardly an expert on Freikorps.

Actually, I know what this is. It's the collar badge of the Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4. The Reichswehr-Brigade 4 Magdeburg of the Vorläufige Reichswehr was formed in June 1919 from the Freikorps unit Freiwilligen Landesschützenkorps.

Here is the collar badge of Freiwilligen Landesschützenkorps/Reichswehr Brigade 4 shown next to the collar badge of Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4.

Also, here is letterhead with the logo of Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4.

Looking at the stickpin again, there's a slight possibility that this is the civil stickpin worn by former members of Zeitfreiwilliger der Reichswehr Brigade 4. It likely can be ID'd definitively in the Katalog der Abzeichen deutscher Organisationen 1871-1945 (Catalogue of German Membership Stickpins and Badges) by André Hüsken.

LandesSk_ZfRwBrig4_comp.jpg

Z_RwBrig 4_a.jpg

Z_RwBrig 4.jpg

Edited by bolewts58

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geez O Pete!  Talk about an obscure logo for an obscure unit!  It's just mind blowing that a piece of stationery that survived for a hundred years is the clue to Mr. Winkler's  "Z" badge.  And it's also possible that the lapel pin could be for a veteran of this obscure military organization.  So now there are at least two possible Freikorps connections to the "Z" logo.  This is shaping up way better than Zorro or Zeppelin.  Simi   

Edited by Simius Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Simius Rex said:

Geez O Pete!  Talk about an obscure logo for an obscure unit!  It's just mind blowing that a piece of stationery that survived for a hundred years is the clue to Mr. Winkler's  "Z" badge.  And it's also possible that the lapel pin could be for a veteran of this obscure military organization.  So now there are at least two possible Freikorps connections to the "Z" logo.  This is shaping up way better than Zorro or Zeppelin.  Simi   

Hardly an obscure organization. Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps/Reichswehr Brigade 4  had a strength of 13,423. I've seen a few of these Z badges around, but have never been able to pick one up to add to my collection. Winkler's price, like all his prices is ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

Hardly an obscure organization. Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps/Reichswehr Brigade 4  had a strength of 13,423. I've seen a few of these Z badges around, but have never been able to pick one up to add to my collection. Winkler's price, like all his prices is ridiculous.

I'm not talking about the Freiwillige Landesschuetzenkorps of the Reichswehr 4th Brigade.  That organization is quite well known. The obscure group that YOU brought up in your post... the ZEITFREIWILLIGE of the Reichswehr 4th Brigade, who apparently even had a unique badge with a "Z" in the center... is what I am talking about.  Maybe Mr. Winkler's price is not that ridiculous.  A collector who wants this rare badge in his collection badly enough may be willing to pay that kind of price.             

Edited by Simius Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe, I'm splitting hairs here. But, the Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4 was part of the Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps , hence the same collar badge except with the Z. I've been collecting Freikorps for 50 years and have been aware of this specific version of the Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps collar badge for a long time. There are other specialized collar badges that have company numbers in them and they are only slightly more expensive than the regular collar. Yes, it's rarer than the standard collar which goes for about 80 EUR. But, still the z badge is worth no more than 150 EUR; nowhere near the 285 that Winkler is asking. He is known for charging absurd prices and I can attest to the fact that all his Freikorps badges are more than double and sometimes nearly triple the market value. Many of Winkler's prices are even double those charged by Weitze who, being advised by well-known Freikorps expert Ingo Haarcke has generally acceptable retail prices for such material, although still considered somewhat expensive by collector standards.

16 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

 A collector who wants this rare badge in his collection badly enough may be willing to pay that kind of price.             

Quite frankly, given there's little actual documentation on this badge (at least that I'm aware of), except what I have provided, I very much doubt that there are very many Freikorps collectors who would recognize this badge, let alone buy it which is why Winkler has had it for years without selling it.

Edited by bolewts58

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/11/2019 at 20:52, bolewts58 said:

Quite frankly, given there's little actual documentation on this badge (at least that I'm aware of), except what I have provided, I very much doubt that there are very many Freikorps collectors who would recognize this badge...

Well, I hate to break this news to you, my friend, but as we say down on the farm... the cat's out of the bag!  In addition to you knowing about it,  now I know about it,  my wife knows about it,  the people reading this thread know about it,  and pretty soon anybody who uses Google will know about it.  Take a look... 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Freikorps+Z+pin+badge&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS777US777&oq=Freikorps+Z+pin+badge&aqs=chrome..69i57.13150j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So I really think you should buy the badge before Mr. Winkler finds out and raises the price to 900 Euro.   Incidentally, I just found out that Mr. Winkler is having a 30% OFF CHRISTMAS SALE.             

Edited by Simius Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, the cat was already out of the bag long ago. There was a discussion about this badge sometime ago on WAF and yet Winkler has not changed his "unknown" description. So, either he doesn't follow the forums, or only follows the German forum, Feldgrau where it hasn't been discussed. In any event, other badges have shown up over the years and eventually I'll find one at a fair price. Even with 30% off, Winkler still wants 200 EUR which is too much for a single collar badge like this. He's had it for sale several times even at a discount and there have been no takers. But, maybe now that we've discussed it someone will buy it. There are a lot of new Freikorps collectors who seem to have more money than sense.

Edited by bolewts58

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Blog Comments

    • Brian, Thanks for initiating this discussion. For me, it’s a combination of the thrill of the chase, the history behind the item, and the aesthetics, although this latter factor may seem a bit strange to some. To illustrate this, the very first thing I collected as a kid in the 1950’s was a Belgian WW1 medal, for service in 1914-18, which is bell shaped, with a very striking profile of a very dignified soldier, wearing an Adrian helmet which bears a laurel wreath. It was the image that
    • Thank you for sharing your story, it was most interesting and greatly appreciated, it makes this blog well worth the time to post. Regards Brian  
    • Hello I started collecting when I found my first Mauser cartridges in a field next to my parents' house next to Armentières. I was eight years old.  Then shrapnel, schrapnell balls, darts... That's how I became a historian. When I was 18, we used to walk through the fields with a metal detector to find our happiness. It was my time in the army as a research-writer in a research centre that made me love the orders of chivalry. I've been collecting them for 24 years now. Christophe
    • Thank you for your most interesting comment. The thrill of the chase didn't interest me in the beginning but over time it started to overshadow the act of simply adding yet another medal or group to the collection. Regards Brian  
    • I know the way I got into collecting is like so many other people; through a sibling. I also know that my love of history is barely unique in a place like this. So I know I have a shared background with many people. A less shared area - perhaps - is that I've always loved the thrill of the chase. When I decide I want, say, a 1914 trio with an original bar, to a cavalry unit, the utter thrill of getting out there and, (a) finding groups that fit the criteria and, (b) comparing them re: ranks, uni
×
×
  • Create New...