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Could this pin belong to a Freikorps group ?

I don't think it's the "Z"of  Zorro ... :) 

benten.

1P1620691ok daC w.jpg

3P1620685 zijkant adC w.jpg

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Zeppelin...…..could be a possibility . 

Thank you for your reply. 

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I think such pins existed for everything from the Bee Keepers association, to the Local Carnival group to Freikorps.... if an unidentified pin pops up there is maybe a 0.034% chance it has a FK association....

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The only Freikorps organization that may have worn the badge " Z " was ZEGROST which is what the Zentrale Grenzschutz Ost (Headquarters Border Protection East) was called.  This organization supervised the operations of all the other Freikorps organizations that patrolled the eastern border with Poland.  The original name of this organization was "Army High Command of Homeland Defense in the East". But the Germans had to rename it because the Poles were offended by that name.  So they came up with a new name: "Zentrale Grenzschutz Ost" which was shortened to ZEGROST.   

Edited by Simius Rex

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On 18/11/2019 at 02:01, Simius Rex said:

Well, if Mr. Winkler doesn't even know what the Z stands for, there appears little hope of ever finding out.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/132120696160

Well, while Kai Winkler is an experienced knowledgeable dealer, he's hardly an expert on Freikorps.

Actually, I know what this is. It's the collar badge of the Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4. The Reichswehr-Brigade 4 Magdeburg of the Vorläufige Reichswehr was formed in June 1919 from the Freikorps unit Freiwilligen Landesschützenkorps.

Here is the collar badge of Freiwilligen Landesschützenkorps/Reichswehr Brigade 4 shown next to the collar badge of Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4.

Also, here is letterhead with the logo of Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4.

Looking at the stickpin again, there's a slight possibility that this is the civil stickpin worn by former members of Zeitfreiwilliger der Reichswehr Brigade 4. It likely can be ID'd definitively in the Katalog der Abzeichen deutscher Organisationen 1871-1945 (Catalogue of German Membership Stickpins and Badges) by André Hüsken.

LandesSk_ZfRwBrig4_comp.jpg

Z_RwBrig 4_a.jpg

Z_RwBrig 4.jpg

Edited by bolewts58

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Geez O Pete!  Talk about an obscure logo for an obscure unit!  It's just mind blowing that a piece of stationery that survived for a hundred years is the clue to Mr. Winkler's  "Z" badge.  And it's also possible that the lapel pin could be for a veteran of this obscure military organization.  So now there are at least two possible Freikorps connections to the "Z" logo.  This is shaping up way better than Zorro or Zeppelin.  Simi   

Edited by Simius Rex

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1 hour ago, Simius Rex said:

Geez O Pete!  Talk about an obscure logo for an obscure unit!  It's just mind blowing that a piece of stationery that survived for a hundred years is the clue to Mr. Winkler's  "Z" badge.  And it's also possible that the lapel pin could be for a veteran of this obscure military organization.  So now there are at least two possible Freikorps connections to the "Z" logo.  This is shaping up way better than Zorro or Zeppelin.  Simi   

Hardly an obscure organization. Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps/Reichswehr Brigade 4  had a strength of 13,423. I've seen a few of these Z badges around, but have never been able to pick one up to add to my collection. Winkler's price, like all his prices is ridiculous.

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3 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

Hardly an obscure organization. Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps/Reichswehr Brigade 4  had a strength of 13,423. I've seen a few of these Z badges around, but have never been able to pick one up to add to my collection. Winkler's price, like all his prices is ridiculous.

I'm not talking about the Freiwillige Landesschuetzenkorps of the Reichswehr 4th Brigade.  That organization is quite well known. The obscure group that YOU brought up in your post... the ZEITFREIWILLIGE of the Reichswehr 4th Brigade, who apparently even had a unique badge with a "Z" in the center... is what I am talking about.  Maybe Mr. Winkler's price is not that ridiculous.  A collector who wants this rare badge in his collection badly enough may be willing to pay that kind of price.             

Edited by Simius Rex

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Maybe, I'm splitting hairs here. But, the Zeitfreiwillige der Reichswehr Brigade 4 was part of the Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps , hence the same collar badge except with the Z. I've been collecting Freikorps for 50 years and have been aware of this specific version of the Freiwillige Landesschützenkorps collar badge for a long time. There are other specialized collar badges that have company numbers in them and they are only slightly more expensive than the regular collar. Yes, it's rarer than the standard collar which goes for about 80 EUR. But, still the z badge is worth no more than 150 EUR; nowhere near the 285 that Winkler is asking. He is known for charging absurd prices and I can attest to the fact that all his Freikorps badges are more than double and sometimes nearly triple the market value. Many of Winkler's prices are even double those charged by Weitze who, being advised by well-known Freikorps expert Ingo Haarcke has generally acceptable retail prices for such material, although still considered somewhat expensive by collector standards.

16 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

 A collector who wants this rare badge in his collection badly enough may be willing to pay that kind of price.             

Quite frankly, given there's little actual documentation on this badge (at least that I'm aware of), except what I have provided, I very much doubt that there are very many Freikorps collectors who would recognize this badge, let alone buy it which is why Winkler has had it for years without selling it.

Edited by bolewts58

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On 19/11/2019 at 20:52, bolewts58 said:

Quite frankly, given there's little actual documentation on this badge (at least that I'm aware of), except what I have provided, I very much doubt that there are very many Freikorps collectors who would recognize this badge...

Well, I hate to break this news to you, my friend, but as we say down on the farm... the cat's out of the bag!  In addition to you knowing about it,  now I know about it,  my wife knows about it,  the people reading this thread know about it,  and pretty soon anybody who uses Google will know about it.  Take a look... 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Freikorps+Z+pin+badge&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS777US777&oq=Freikorps+Z+pin+badge&aqs=chrome..69i57.13150j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So I really think you should buy the badge before Mr. Winkler finds out and raises the price to 900 Euro.   Incidentally, I just found out that Mr. Winkler is having a 30% OFF CHRISTMAS SALE.             

Edited by Simius Rex

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Actually, the cat was already out of the bag long ago. There was a discussion about this badge sometime ago on WAF and yet Winkler has not changed his "unknown" description. So, either he doesn't follow the forums, or only follows the German forum, Feldgrau where it hasn't been discussed. In any event, other badges have shown up over the years and eventually I'll find one at a fair price. Even with 30% off, Winkler still wants 200 EUR which is too much for a single collar badge like this. He's had it for sale several times even at a discount and there have been no takers. But, maybe now that we've discussed it someone will buy it. There are a lot of new Freikorps collectors who seem to have more money than sense.

Edited by bolewts58

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