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  • 4 weeks later...

Surprising there are few about. Same award criteria for all officers. Maybe it's possible that more female officers leave  before the award length of service is reached. Don't have any statistics to offer on that one.

Glenn.

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Another angle to consider on this is countries that number their medals instead of naming them as is the case with South African military medals. I admit it's not done on police medals here as far as I know but it's possible and unless you have the numbers of all prior or current serving police men/women finding out if a numbered medal was awarded to a female is mission impossible unless there's other documents or information to substantiate it.

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This is an interesting example.

 

Am curious  to know why it’s named PS and not DS?

 

Why is it named  PS and not Sergt? 


Why has CID been included? 
 

It would appear to be a pre 2000 issue as it’s not Rhodium played?

 

Would be interested to hear people’s thoughts. 
 

 

8ADB67D5-BD2C-419A-AA3B-A9FF30A410A4.jpeg

33A5837D-183C-4DB8-BEE6-C50823E41989.jpeg

58863FD9-1997-4DFD-BF4A-72BDDCEFF4B1.jpeg

E115AFFD-1E0F-4BE2-8D9C-5BD9EE867117.jpeg

Edited by bigjarofwasps
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As I understand it "Detective Sergeant" is not,  a rank as such. The rank is "Sergeant" and the prefix Detective is a mere designation. Can't understand why PS is used on this particular medal, as you suggest, "Sergt" is usually the norm.

In several forces the prefix "Police" in respect of ranks is regarded as being a total "non, no". PSNI (and the old RUC) is one such force and another is Merseyside Police where the title Constable is used and not prefixed by "Police". The term PS is also very much a "no, no" in Merseyside (and the PSNI). The term "PS" is, in effect, an afterthought on a piece of written correspondence, a fact of which I was forcefully remined of when I had the temerity to refer to a Sergeant as such on my return from District Training Centre many years ago.

Finally, you will never find the term "Police Constable" mentioned in any UK Act of Parliament. You will find "Constable", but it is never proceeded with the word "Police".

Dave. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

As I understand it "Detective Sergeant" is not,  a rank as such. The rank is "Sergeant" and the prefix Detective is a mere designation. Can't understand why PS is used on this particular medal, as you suggest, "Sergt" is usually the norm.

In several forces the prefix "Police" in respect of ranks is regarded as being a total "non, no". PSNI (and the old RUC) is one such force and another is Merseyside Police where the title Constable is used and not prefixed by "Police". The term PS is also very much a "no, no" in Merseyside (and the PSNI). The term "PS" is, in effect, an afterthought on a piece of written correspondence, a fact of which I was forcefully remined of when I had the temerity to refer to a Sergeant as such on my return from District Training Centre many years ago.

Finally, you will never find the term "Police Constable" mentioned in any UK Act of Parliament. You will find "Constable", but it is never proceeded with the word "Police".

Dave. 

 

Very interesting Dave and something I will look into further!! 

 

 

Something else that's been pointed out to me is if you look closely at the label on the box lid, it appears as if the letter "W" has been deleted with correction fluid. As far as I'm aware the rank of WPC was still being used until 1999, but this type of box ceased to be used long before that? 

 

 

 

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Again, I think that the use of the term WPC depended on the force. In Liverpool City, Liverpool & Bootle and Merseyside (prior to 1975), women were shown as Con. 118"WP" Smith,  Sgt. 10"WP" Smith., Insp. Smith "WP"., C/Insp. Smith "WP" and so on. After 1975, and for many years the letter "W" prefixed the rank. I'd guess that even that has been dropped now. During my time it was often important to be able to identify women officers on paper etc., as obviously you very often needed to ensure that a woman officer was present (or deliberately absent) on certain occasions for operational reasons.

Dave.  

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That’s interesting Dave, Const WP as apposed to WPC.

Found this...

PD = Police Dog, so there can be no ambiguity with your box standard dog 😆.
 

Imagine the confusion if Police Detective was used instead of Detective Constable 😆😆😆.

F9AFA8D8-ECE0-4069-A134-D017FAF95DA6.jpeg

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Finally, you will never find the term "Police Constable" mentioned in any UK Act of Parliament. You will find "Constable", but it is never proceeded with the word "Police".

Dave

Personally, I've always considered PC or 'Police Constable' an unnecessary  redundancy. But then I'm an English teacher.  Are there other kinds of 'Constables'?  Not as far as I know.  It's a bit like saying 'RAF Airman' or 'RN Petty Officer'.  

That said, it seems, as I've always believed [from my reading of British crime novels] that 'Detective Sergeant' was what the army calls an  appointment, as opposed to a RANK.  A Sergeant is no less a Sergeant, but also no more than a Sergeant in rank and service for being appointed Commissary Sergeant or something similar.  But, many such appointees see it as a mark of official approval, which it is, and so wish the full title used.  Human Nature.

 

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Hi BJW,

As far as I am aware the W in WPC/WPS was not to be used after the integration of genders in 1986 and would account for the "offending" letter being expunged from the box of issue.

Regarding use of Police, there are many instances of a Constable not being a Police Constable. Parish Constable, Cathedral Constable, Special Constable Etc. These titles were in existence long before  organised Policing.

Peter

 

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10 minutes ago, Deelibob said:

Hi BJW,

As far as I am aware the W in WPC/WPS was not to be used after the integration of genders in 1986 and would account for the "offending" letter being expunged from the box of issue.

Regarding use of Police, there are many instances of a Constable not being a Police Constable. Parish Constable, Cathedral Constable, Special Constable Etc. These titles were in existence long before  organised Policing.

Peter

 

Thanks Peter, so if we're looking at no later than 1986 for the issue of this medal, so she must have joined around 1964? 

What's the latest usage of white cardboard boxes we can confirm?

 

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5 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

This is an interesting example.

 

Am curious  to know why it’s named PS and not DS?

 

Why is it named  PS and not Sergt? 


Why has CID been included? 
 

It would appear to be a pre 2000 issue as it’s not Rhodium played?

 

Would be interested to hear people’s thoughts. 
 

 

8ADB67D5-BD2C-419A-AA3B-A9FF30A410A4.jpeg

33A5837D-183C-4DB8-BEE6-C50823E41989.jpeg

58863FD9-1997-4DFD-BF4A-72BDDCEFF4B1.jpeg

E115AFFD-1E0F-4BE2-8D9C-5BD9EE867117.jpeg

It appears that.................. 

The death of a Hilda Doris COLES was recorded in Lambeth, London in the third quarter of 1985. Her birth date is stated to be 3rd August 1913.

Norfolk baptism records show Hilda Doris WARD of 1, Beckham Road, Lowestoft, birth date 3rd August 1913, so that seems to check out.

Her marriage to William A. COLES was registered at Hendon in the first quarter of 1940. The 1939 register says he was a Special Constable. No trace of Hilda can be found on the 1939 census, so perhaps she was serving in the forces when it was compiled, female personnel often left the forces on marriage in those early days, so one theory could be that her police service started around 1940, which could date the LSGC to circa 1960. 

This would certainly account for the issue box, but not for why the W has been tippexed out?

All in all a very interesting engraving anomaly!!

 

 

 

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Hi,

It will be interesting to see what final value is placed on '''PS [CID] Hilda D Coles''' QE11 L.S.G.C. medal' [Metropolitan Police], as there is still several days left before the sale is completed. Already it has 22 bids and the price stands at £127.00 plus postage. That just proves there are quite a few individuals/collectors out there, that appreciate her medal.  

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7 hours ago, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

It will be interesting to see what final value is placed on '''PS [CID] Hilda D Coles''' QE11 L.S.G.C. medal' [Metropolitan Police], as there is still several days left before the sale is completed. Already it has 22 bids and the price stands at £127.00 plus postage. That just proves there are quite a few individuals/collectors out there, that appreciate her medal.  

Agreed, would be interesting to see what this fetches and whether is is because it’s to a female or because of the unusual naming or both!!!

Can’t imagine there being many female LSGC recipients during the 50’s and 60’s?  
 

Would be interesting to know whether as a  female member of CID, if she was involved in any high profile cases that occurred during that period? 

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Just over a week ago I was doing my usual round of on net medal dealers sites when I came across two QEII Police Exemplary Service medals to a husband and wife of the Merseyside Police, Sergt Joseph McLoughlin and his Wife Const Mavis McLoughlin. I quickly purchased this pair and began to investigate. Joseph was born in Liverpool c 1935/6 and probably served world war II. He joined the Liverpool City Police c.1946 and was later promoted to Sgt 8"B" at Prescot Street Police Station and when the designation "B" was given to Bootle in 1967 as a consequence of the Bootle/Liverpool amalgamation. Joe became 8"G"   circa 1972 he became the crime prevention officer at "C" Division and left the Force in 1976. He apparently did not retire. His first wife died in 1972 after 20 years of marriage.Joe was an accomplished Radio Ham. He married Mavis in 1978, this was her first marriage and she was 41 years old.

Mavis McLoughlin was born in Liverpool as Mavis Heeson c.1938 and joined the Liverpool City Police as 90 "WP" she served with the Women Police up to 1982, like Joe she served in the City, Liverpool and Bootle and Merseyside Police without moving anywhere. Mavis died in 2017.

I am indebted to Dave Wilkinson for much of this information and photo of Joseph. I was delighted to also obtain a photograph of Mavis taken in 1958 and in conversation with the CC.

joe McLaughlin.jpg

Mavis Heeson.jpg

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On 25/02/2020 at 09:15, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

It will be interesting to see what final value is placed on '''PS [CID] Hilda D Coles''' QE11 L.S.G.C. medal' [Metropolitan Police], as there is still several days left before the sale is completed. Already it has 22 bids and the price stands at £127.00 plus postage. That just proves there are quite a few individuals/collectors out there, that appreciate her medal.  

......£216 plus postage and packing!!!

Who’d have thought!!!!!

B9090C97-82AF-4B93-9722-85B4A10F5C6F.jpeg

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On 02/02/2020 at 13:13, bigjarofwasps said:

First regular female police officer, LSGC I’ve seen. 

0467B2A0-1375-4AFF-8CC7-30B89690AA7B.jpeg

Syliva HULME


Born August 1950 (originally from Kinmel Bay)
Went to school at Abergele Grammar (Emrys ap Iwan) - photo dated April 1967 
Police Cadet  17th July 1967 joined Flintshire Constabulary 
WPC Collar number 52 and then became 1252, when WPC's become PC's.
Stationed at
Deeside 1970-72 
Hawarden 1974 -76 (circ)
Buckley 1975
Flint 1983 (circ) 
Holywell 1983 (circ)
Mold 1991 (front desk)
Mold 1996 (retired)
Prestatyn (Traffic Dept at some point)
Played on the Force Net Ball Team and was also a Fed Rep and was Narpo treasurer. 
Lived at 16 Cae Y Dderwen, Greenfield, Holywell. 
Died 23rd October 2016 aged 69. Assets £905,873. 
 

70603744-DDFC-46E5-84DF-6B7275737F17.jpeg

74D3819A-9F3E-435C-A877-F86C38509964.jpeg

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