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Civil Group Of 13 -Trying To Identify Recipient


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Gentlemen,

Some time ago I obtained this most attractive group of thirteen miniatures  - all of which are extremely well made and most are of gold. To date, despite best efforts with colleagues, I have been unable to identify the owner of the group or even draw up a shortlist. The group consists of the following: 

1.      United Kingdom - 1935 GVR Jubilee Medal - 85,000 approx issued

2.      United Kingdom - 1937 GVIR Coronation Medal - 90,000 approx issued

3.      Dungarpur State – 1943 Silver Jubilee Medal -  Checked 1935 Jubilee Roll - all recipients have Indian names

4.      Belgium - Order of the Crown – Officer, 4th Class

5.      France - Legion of Honour – Knight, 5th Class

6.      Montenegro - Order of Danilo – Grand Cordon, 1st Class  - Obsolete after Great War - Checked LG  for WW1 awards - not many and all military

7.      Greece - Order of the Orthodox Crusaders of the Patriarchy of Jerusalem - 1st Class Sash Badge

8.      Netherlands - Order of Orange Nassau – Commander, 3rd Class

9.      Russia - Order of St. Anne – Knight, 5th Class (Obsolete after Great War?)

10.  Patriarchate of Constantinople - Mount Athos Millenium Memorial Cross 1963

11.  GreeceOrder of the Orthodox Crusaders of the Patriarchy of Jerusalem – Commander’s Neck Badge

12.  France - Palmes Academiques - 1st Class (pre-1955)

13.  Russia - Order of St. Stanislas - 5th Class (Obsolete after Great War?)

 So to recap:

  • Lead medals - 35 & 37 commemoratives
  • Format - very British
  • Very well made and gold (expensive)
  • No British orders
  • No military medals - thus no military service in WW2
  • To heavy mix of 'orthodox' awards - Constantinople, Greece, Montenegro, Russia
  • Dungarpur medal - 35 Jubilee Roll for Dungarpur only has 15  Indian names - Rajputna Roll (Dungarpur within Rajputna) has 76 names - 25 British - all military or with honours. 
  • Time frame - end of WW1 (if Montenegro & Russian awards are pre-overthrow of regimes) to 1963 (Athos Cross) 

So I believe I am looking for a well to do UK national (possibly an emigre who took on nationality) who is a civilian, with some manner of  'orthodox' connections - an academic,  a cleric, or some manner of political person.

Without having to name spot by accessing the whole of the 35 and 37 medal rolls - any ideas, suggestions, thoughts?

With thanks in advance,

Owain

 

ORR Obverse 131019.jpg

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Thanks Paul.

I've also looked up the LG for awards of Orange Nassau 1920 to 1970. The bulk of the Civil Commanders are gazetted LG 30 January 1948 (47 of which 24 have post nominals) & 29 August 1950 (8 of which 3 have post nominals) but both lists are for WW2 related services, and not one name seems even vaguely Balkan or Slavic thus I suspect our man is not amongst them.

OPwain

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Is it possible that the absence of orders on the bar is because the individual was awarded a higher level neck order or even Grand Cross, hence it doesn't appear on the bar?

 

H

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Mike, Hugh,

I don't think he is a member of the Royal Household - junior staff would not have accumulated such an array and senior staff or even Royal would not have worn the Dungarpur Indian Princely state medal or indeed the Athos Cross as they would not have been allowed to wear them. Even 'restricted permission to wear' would not have resulted in such a group.

Perhaps there may have been a British neck badge (CBE? CVO? CMG? CB?, CH? OM?) worn separately but we'll never know unless we can ID the group's owner.

Regards,

Owain

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I am wondering whether our man was a roving diplomat maybe involved in the resettlement of displaced persons. Non red cross but could be society of friends, Quakers who were heavily involved in such work.

P

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Paul,

Thanks for this suggestion. I had already looked at the BRC roll for the 1935 Jubilee Medal and there were no obvious candidates. Ditto Miscellaneous Individuals list - only 8 persons. I suspect the answer may lie in one of the following:

  • Privy Purse - unlikely as these contain Royals, Royal Household Staff, Foreign Diplomats.
  • Civil Service - 75 Rolls
  • Advisers to Government Departments - 28 Rolls  - best bet??

Ho hum.......

Owain

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Paul,

I read the Privy Purse Roll - interesting reading but no obvious candidates - the list includes one 'X' - HIH The Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna of Russia on the King's Personal Friends List - she was his 1st cousin and sister to Tsar Nicholas II - she died in 1960 - so not her! I also tried the Advisers to Government Departments Rolls - again interesting reading but no obvious candidates.

Owain

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Here's a question, given the fact the jublee medals are at the front could this be the bottom half of a group with maybe some ww1 ww2 and campaigns medals so instead of a group of 13 it's could be a group of 20/23?

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8 minutes ago, paddywhack said:

Here's a question, given the fact the jublee medals are at the front could this be the bottom half of a group with maybe some ww1 ww2 and campaigns medals so instead of a group of 13 it's could be a group of 20/23?

No the British wear all their medals in one row.....   With the exception of Orders of course.....       I still think that this is a Royal Household Group....    Mike   

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I'm leaning more towards Hugh's suggestion...

You often see people wearing Commander's Crosses or Grand Crosses as full size decorations and then a miniature bar with 'the rest', including higher classes of foreign orders as seen here.

The royal household bars I've seen (from various countries) would normally not have Commander or Grand Cross classes of foreign orders, but would have a lot of 'court medals' (in bronze, silver or gold depending on the seniority).

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This is a very strange group (and I am afraid not in a good way).

Simply try to connect this british part 

1.thumb.jpg.8d4e584b5e8594359dc795e8bc5348ad.jpg

 

with these two russian imperial awards.

2.thumb.jpg.d63a12f6efaf85a5cc64f1d965686004.jpg

To do this you definitely need something from ww1 period.

A few miniature groups to illustrate my point. 

 

2085265897_8(2).thumb.jpg.d22c40ab9968b0f61df46add9691ebe8.jpg

 

9.thumb.jpg.2966cc6a45649cb58ca428d567a7370d.jpg

 

8.thumb.jpg.10add66b177a301fa3fd48d010a1eefc.jpg

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Royal Household? 

But 15 years gap (at the very least!) from russian imperial awards to the first british awards?! 

In addition we have russian orders (not medals "for zeal" which is more typical for such groups) and no british orders in sight. 

Plus there no national royal household medals (only national orders) in sight which is again very atypical (if at all possible) for such groups. 

To illustrate my point. 

68.thumb.jpg.f628d9507d6d2bfab0fc52a497940891.jpg

66.thumb.jpg.668561d6ab5faac1a195c020a57566cb.jpg

 

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 On top of that we have "all indian" 1943 silver jubilee medal. 

As I said earlier, very strange group.

Regards,

Nick

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So with this having Belgium, French, Dutch, Russian etc could this just be a British diplomat or is it looking like a fantasy bar?!

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I was also thinking a Walt but was not sure as have seen some odd groups in the past (i.e. a WW1 Iron Cross 2nd Class,  and a Military Medal for WW1 all issued to the same man and before you ask yes it was verified......    Mike

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Gentlemen

Good to read your various responses, and yes, perhaps there is an element of 'social climber' (or 'Walt') with the group. The mix coupled with the strange ordering and a repeat of the Orthodox Crusaders award, plus of course the Dungarpur medal  (which as far as I am aware was an unknown until I obtained the group), points to someone who did not feel constrained by the proper etiquette of wearing awards but was well enough connected to be a recipient of the awards and wealthy enough to have such a group of very high quality miniatures put together and presumably with a view to wearing them. At least the Athos Cross gives a semblance of a cut off date. Sadly there is no label on the reverse. Despite all of this I think that the 35 Jubilee and 37 Coronation were genuinely awarded - as to the others I doubt if any of them are in the LG - I cannot see the recipient even trying to get permission to wear them. As both the 35 and 37 awards were close in chronological terms there is a large overlap in recipients and to date I am unaware of a list of recipients who received both - such a list would, at least, provide a more practical means of narrowing the field of possible candidates. Ah well, it is not urgent and will remain in my to do box for a while yet.

Owain

P.S. Thank you JapanX for sharing your miniature groups - really nice groups.

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Posted (edited)

They're not mine Owain, but groups from my data archive. Glad you liked them.

Everything is possible of course. Even iron cross in the british group. 

But we have 1st class Danilo in the very same group where we have lower classes of russian imperial orders, 5th class legion, 4th class crown and a few british medals from 30s/40s without any orders.

It doesn`t even matter who was recepient (diplomat,  religious figure, traveling salesman, etc.).

The real question - how he could get 1st class of Danilo (presumably somewhere around ww1) but only lower classes of other orders at the same time (or even later). 1st class Danilo is not exactly a trinket. One really must keep up with his social status (or military rank) to get one. 

Again a few groups to illustrate my point. 

This is 4th class Danilo in a group that belong to temporary lieutenant-colonel H. L. “Ham” Riley, Rifle Brigade (awarded somewhere around 1917).

0.thumb.jpg.492ba75de169b73ce1373f1f2d30ac03.jpg

And here we have 2nd class that belong to temporary major general J G Legge, 2nd Australian Division.

 

1.jpg.a7aade9c7d5d74f5d35e713f2975c66d.jpg

1st class Danilo?

478505046_.thumb.jpg.d8a20fbb85181bd68e0def00a3d8ec3a.jpg

Curiouser and curiouser ...

Edited by JapanX
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JapanX,

Your point concerning the Danlio 1st Class is well made.

Of course the group could be the result of a bored tailor who put them together to 'amuse' but I don't think so.

As you say, curiouser and curiouser.

Owain

 

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