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Preussen: Effekten eines Generals. ???


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Hi, I recently bought a set that was theoretically from a Prussian general.

The catalog description read:

Preussen: Effekten eines Generals. 1.) Kragen: Ponceau rot, mit goldener Metallfadenstickerei, 2.) Paar Aufschläge: Ponceau rot, mit goldener Metallfadenstickerei, je schwarz unterfüttert

But once the passion is over, and seen in more detail, I am sure they are not Prussians, but French (from the embroidery design). But I have never seen this type of embroidery on a red background. Does anyone have any idea what the uniform of these embroidery is?

Effekten eines Generals 10001.jpg

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The pattern seems to emulate that of the dark blue Prussian general’s gestickte Waffenrock in use up to 1909.  

Based on the pics, I’m not sure it is original, though: the embroidery on the arm patches is of a different pattern the Prussian model, acorns are embroidered, the leaves seem flat, not the almost 3 dimensional embroidery seen on originals, and the background color seems off (compare the first pic below for Ponceaurot without flash).

Compare: https://www.militaria.at/ShowPageNew.aspx?id=634886745377944044 and the pics below.

Any evidence of buttons having been present on the cuffs? 

I'm by no means an expert on French general's tunics, but from memory they do not tend to have red/carmine facing color on the sleeves and collar. A quick google search seems to bear that out. 

Since I love a puzzle, I'll dig into my references as time permits, but identification may take a while (if indeed it happens), because many armies around 1900 used a pattern of this kind for high ranking offers, officials and diplomats.

BTW, the rounding of the collar may also be an identifying trait.

Kind regards,

Sandro

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Edited by GdC26
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Thank you very much GdC26 for your interest.
When I saw these embroidery, I did not pay close attention to it, and thought it was a variant of the Prussian embroidery. But I was blinded by the amount of embroidery that was offered (I bid for almost all of them, thinking that with the barbarity that it offered I would take them home, and I could only get two, and not even the ones that interested me the most)
Now I think that the type of embroidery is French, of the model that I show in this image and photograph. But as I said before, I have only seen them with a black background.

 

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Général Pitié i.e. Pittié. Secrétaire général de la présidence de la République 10001.png

Général Pitié i.e. Pittié. Secrétaire général de la présidence de la République 10004.png

Général Pitié i.e. Pittié. Secrétaire général de la présidence de la République 10005.png

Tunique de général de division modèle 1872 10009.png

I don't think they are copies, the quality of the embroidery is quite good. But you never know...

 

Effekten eines Generals 10004.jpg

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Hello. The Argentinian Army Generals weared with the Blue Dress Uniform collar and cuffs braided in gold over red since 1904 until the nineties of the XX century. but your collar and cuffs are not Argentinians. Chile too adopted braided collar and cuffs in gold over red for Army generals until today but they are not Chileans. Bolivia was another South American Country first with French Influence and since 1911 to today German one in their uniforms, The tone of the red background rather pinkish Sic remember to me the Background I observed in Bolivian Generals SBs and Lampassen . one possibility is that they belonged to a Bolivian General de Division full dress uniform between 1911 and 1912 or 1913 . About the French Generals the Only ones that weared coloured collar and cuffs were the Medical Generals but their gold braid over crimson velvet background was not of oak leaves and acorns it was a branch of Achantus entwined with a serpent 

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Like Bayern, as said, I don't think the collar and cuffs are French, because of their facing colour. 

I've checked Die deutsche Generale by MilitariaVerlag and Pietsch' Formationsgeschichte des preußischen Heeres, and based on that, don't believe they are German imperial, either. The double row of oaks leaves on the cuffs does not fit the general officer pattern in use in any of the states documented in those references (which amongst them, cover the period 1806-1918). The facing color seems closer to that used by general staff, but the emboridery does not fit patterns in use in the general staffs/war ministries of the German states, either (Saxony in the 1870's had special embroidery for general staff officers that involved a leave pattern, but it is different from the ones on your collar and cuffs). 

I think it may be worth seeing if you can find a reference for general officers or general staff officers in the armies of the South American states identified by Bayern. Perhaps that will yield a match. 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

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Thank you very much Bayern, I will start looking for generals from other countries, starting with South America.

I completely agree GdC26, they sure are not German.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Riddle solved.

Thanks to an Ebay ad I have found out which uniform these embroideries belong to.

In the following link the "Uniform des württembergischen Staatsanwalt Richard von Sieber" is sold.

 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/184071337951?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=707-53477-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001

 

With good photos of the collar and cuffs. 

Wurttemberg-Uniform-Gerichtsprasident-Stuttgart-um-1900-_573.jpg

Wurttemberg-Uniform-Gerichtsprasident-Stuttgart-um-1900-_57.jpg

Apparently this uniform went on sale at auction number 8 of Bene Merenti

8. AUKTION 27. September 2014

 

8. AUKTION 27. September.jpg

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