johannis Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) Hello. New addition to my collection. The cross has dimensions 54 x 33 cm without the crown. Please,I would like information about the date of construction of this specific piece, the manufacturer and if there is a relevant link. What is the reason for the existence of a simple cross and one with laurels? Any information opinion and comment is welcome. Many thanks. Regards,Jannis. Edited March 30, 2021 by johannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Johannis, An interesting question. I would be interested in knowing the answer as well. Since you are in Greece have you enquire of the Orthodox church about this simple cross in relationship to the one with Laurels? Sorry for the question but I had to ask. I've posted a picture of the cross with laurels for comparison. Regards, Gordon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted March 31, 2021 Author Share Posted March 31, 2021 Hello. First of all, thank you very much for your comment and your interest. Yes, I asked, they said they didn't know because Jerusalem has an independent patriarchate. I asked in a Greek collector's forum, no answer so far. There is a book about the order, but unfortunately it is sold out. There are four classes there. Grand Cross Knight's cross Knights Crusaders I have seen Knight's cross with and without laurels, so I assume that at the older there were plain crosses and the newer ones with laures. But that's not a fact, just my opinion. I add photos with Knight's crosses and two diplomas with datum 1957 and 2005. Regards,Jannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 Jannis, Thanks for the additional information. Your assumption that the older crosses did not have laurels and newer ones did seems reasonable. It would also seem that the medallion was also added at a later date. I found the following on a page in the Library of John F. Kennedy. It is interesting to note who bestowed this Knights Cross on Jackie Kennedy. Perhaps contacting the office in Jerusalem might help you resolve your question. https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/JFKSG/JFKSG-MO-1963-1711-2c/JFKSG-MO-1963-1711-2c Regards, Gordon About Museum Artifact Accession Number: MO 63.1711.2c Collection: Gifts from Heads of State Title: Grand Cross of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem Maker: Maker unknown Medium: Gold, enamel, textile Dimensions: 3 3/4" x 1 5/8" Description: Gold and black enamel Latin crowned cross surrounded by green enamel laurel wreath. The cross hangs as a pendant from a red ribbon. The cross grants membership for Mrs. John F. Kennedy into, and is the symbol of rank of Knight Grand Cross in the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem. Historical Note: This award was bestowed upon First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy by His Beatitude Benedictos I, Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, at the White House on October 6, 1961. Knight Grand Cross is one of the five classes of rank bestowed by the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem. Membership in the Order is reserved solely for practicing Roman Catholics. The Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem can trace its origins to Godfrey de Bouillon of the first Crusade, who gathered around him a group of knights who were entrusted with the protection of the religious Chapter of Canons who were present at the Holy Sepulchre of Christ. For twenty years, these knights, and those who came to join their number, protected the Christian presence at the Holy Sepulchre, taking as their banner the red Jerusalem cross popularized by the crusading knights. Rights Copyright Status: Donated to the United States Digital Identifier: JFKSG-MO-1963-1711-2c Gifter: His Beatitude Benedictos I, Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem Related Records: Presentation Chest for the Grand Cross Grand Cross of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem Star Presentation Chest for the Grand Cross Grand Cross of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem Grand Cross of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem Star Archival Creator: National Archives and Records Administration. Office of Presidential Libraries. John F. Kennedy Library. (04/01/1985- ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 2, 2021 Author Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) Hello. Thank you for the link. My cross dimension is 5.40 x 3.30 cm Mrs Kennedy's Grand Cross is 9.50 x 4.10 cm. All crosses that I have found are at least Knight's Crosses to necklace with dimensions 9.50 to 14.00 cm. I don't have found Knights o Crusaders crosses. My cross is smaller,maybe for Knights o Crusaders. I tried to find out the manufacturer with this hallmark, without success. If I find out something more precise, I'll add here. Thanks again. Regards, Jannis. Edited April 2, 2021 by johannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper_D Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Gordon Craig said: Jannis, Thanks for the additional information. Your assumption that the older crosses did not have laurels and newer ones did seems reasonable. It would also seem that the medallion was also added at a later date. I found the following on a page in the Library of John F. Kennedy. It is interesting to note who bestowed this Knights Cross on Jackie Kennedy. Perhaps contacting the office in Jerusalem might help you resolve your question. https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/JFKSG/JFKSG-MO-1963-1711-2c/JFKSG-MO-1963-1711-2c Regards, Gordon Gordon The Library of John F. Kennedy has got this seriously mixed up. The Grand Cross of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre looks like this: Source: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/order-holy-sepulchre-vatican-grand-1908172190 As the Library's catalogue entry text says (my emphasis), Quote Knight Grand Cross is one of the five classes of rank bestowed by the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem. Membership in the Order is reserved solely for practicing Roman Catholics. So why would it be presented by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem? This should have jumped out at the cataloguer, one would have hoped. That having been said, your advice to consult the office of the aforementioned Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem about the Order which was actually awarded seems like a good idea. Edited April 2, 2021 by Trooper_D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 3, 2021 Author Share Posted April 3, 2021 Thank you for your opinion. I will contact the office of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem. Regards,Jannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted April 3, 2021 Share Posted April 3, 2021 Jannis, Good luck in your search. I hope that you get an answer from Jerusalem. If you are still trying to add to your collection in this Order and have not looked at emedals I would suggest it as one source. Regards, Gordon https://www.emedals.com/an-order-of-the-orthodox-crusaders-of-the-patriarchy-of-jerusalem-grand-cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 3, 2021 Author Share Posted April 3, 2021 (edited) Thanks,Gordon for the tip and help, if I find out something specific, I'll let you know. Regards, Jannis. Edited April 3, 2021 by johannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted April 3, 2021 Share Posted April 3, 2021 Johannis, A question. I've posted two pictures from the emedals site. One clearly belongs to the Jerusalem Order. The other seems to be related to the Orthodox church in Greece. Perhaps you could explain the one that appears to be connected to the Orthodox church in Geece for me? Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 4, 2021 Author Share Posted April 4, 2021 Hello Gordon. The Grand Cross is in three parts, the cross on the neck, the star and the badge on the shoulder strap. Regards,Jannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 7, 2021 Author Share Posted April 7, 2021 Hello from Greece. I found and bought the book and contacted the author. His answer: "All classes of the badge are for neck and as you will see in the appendix of my book, yours is the Knights cross (Cross with crown). The ribbon is not original,in the photos its color appears as orange and not red. The cross is engraved with the degrees of silver (800) and the initials of Switzerland (CH). If you do not have the box to be sure who exactly is the manufacturer, only assumptions can be made. I guess it may be HUGENIN or LE LOCLE. Era before 1940." The classes are: Grand Cross (the cross on the neck, the star and the badge on the shoulder strap). Knight's cross with star (Cross with laurels and crown) Knight's cross (Cross with laurels and crown) Knights (Cross with crown) Crusaders (Cross without crown) Thanks again for your interest and help. Regards,Jannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 On 04/04/2021 at 00:18, Gordon Craig said: Johannis, A question. I've posted two pictures from the emedals site. One clearly belongs to the Jerusalem Order. The other seems to be related to the Orthodox church in Greece. Perhaps you could explain the one that appears to be connected to the Orthodox church in Geece for me? Regards, Gordon Hello from Gordon. I found and bought the book and contacted the author. His answer: "All classes of the badge are for the neck and as you will see in the appendix of my book, yours is the Knights cross (Cross with crown). The ribbon is not original,in the photos its color appears as orange and not red. The cross is engraved with the degrees of silver (800) and the initials of Switzerland (CH). If you do not have the box to be sure who exactly is the manufacturer, only assumptions can be made. I guess it may be HUGENIN or LE LOCLE. Era before 1940." The classes are: Grand Cross (the cross on the neck, the star and the badge on the shoulder strap). Knight's cross with star (Cross with laurels and crown) Knight's cross (Cross with laurels and crown) Knights (Cross with crown) Crusaders (Cross without crown) Thanks again for your interest and help. Regards,Jannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 On 03/04/2021 at 17:18, Gordon Craig said: Johannis, A question. I've posted two pictures from the emedals site. One clearly belongs to the Jerusalem Order. The other seems to be related to the Orthodox church in Greece. Perhaps you could explain the one that appears to be connected to the Orthodox church in Geece for me? Regards, Gordon Jannis, Glad to hear that you have found a book that describes these awards. Would you please tell me the title of the book and where I could buy a copy. Perhaps I did not explain myself when I asked about the two awards pictured above. While they are the same shape they are not the same award. The painting in the medallion is different and one has the Jerusalem Cross in the arms while the other has two crowns and two double headed eagles. The cross with the crowns appears to be the Order of the Orthodox Crusaders. What is the other cross with the Jerusalem cross in the four arms? Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 9, 2021 Author Share Posted April 9, 2021 Hello Gordon. The book is in greek was printed in 2012 and had an edition of 500 pieces. The title is "Το Ταγμα Των Ορθοδοξων Σταυροφορων Του Παναγιου Ταφου" by M.G. Barbounis -P.D. Rizopoulos. Has been out of stock for a long time. But that's not a problem, I can scan the book and email it to you. Because, I'm for work, out of my home, until the end of next week, I can only do that next weekend. I contacted the author about the difference of the Emedals bagdes, let's see what he will answer. I found on the web an interesting variation of the Italian manufacturer S.Johnson. Regads, Jannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannis Posted April 9, 2021 Author Share Posted April 9, 2021 17 hours ago, Gordon Craig said: Jannis, Glad to hear that you have found a book that describes these awards. Would you please tell me the title of the book and where I could buy a copy. Perhaps I did not explain myself when I asked about the two awards pictured above. While they are the same shape they are not the same award. The painting in the medallion is different and one has the Jerusalem Cross in the arms while the other has two crowns and two double headed eagles. The cross with the crowns appears to be the Order of the Orthodox Crusaders. What is the other cross with the Jerusalem cross in the four arms? Regards, Gordon Hello Gordon. The book is in greek was printed in 2012 and had an edition of 500 pieces. The title is "Το Ταγμα Των Ορθοδοξων Σταυροφορων Του Παναγιου Ταφου" by M.G. Barbounis -P.D. Rizopoulos. Has been out of stock for a long time. But that's not a problem, I can scan the book and email it to you. Because, I'm for work, out of my home, until the end of next week, I can only do that next weekend. I contacted the author about the difference of the Emedals bagdes, let's see what he will answer. I found on the web an interesting variation of the Italian manufacturer S.Johnson. Regads, Jannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Jannis, Interesting variations from Italy. Thanks for posting them. Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 5 hours ago, johannis said: Hello Gordon. The book is in greek was printed in 2012 and had an edition of 500 pieces. The title is "Το Ταγμα Των Ορθοδοξων Σταυροφορων Του Παναγιου Ταφου" by M.G. Barbounis -P.D. Rizopoulos. Has been out of stock for a long time. But that's not a problem, I can scan the book and email it to you. Because, I'm for work, out of my home, until the end of next week, I can only do that next weekend. I contacted the author about the difference of the Emedals bagdes, let's see what he will answer. I found on the web an interesting variation of the Italian manufacturer S.Johnson. Regads, Jannis. Jannis, Very kind of you to offer to scan the book for me. I would be grateful for scanned copy of the book whenever you can find the time. Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffy Duck Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 Just to add my humble addition to this topic....I haven't got the possibility to see that great book, but to my knowledge, there is a issue about this order. According to the pictures of two Serbian kings from late 1800s, both of them wore around neck simple Jerusalem crosses without laurels. I assume that was the single or the highest class at that time. In my collection there is a I class of the order (Lemaitre) from the very beginning of 1900s, but without another order badge... I assume it was added after 1925, and the newest recomposition of the Order classes... I also noticed that the fragment of the True Cross was placed in every order, regardless of the class... And those are two Serbian kings with this Order without laurels: King Milan Obrenović and his son, Alexander, respectively... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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