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It was gently pointed out to me that I was on the verge of hijacking somebody else's thread by posting some of my own material for review.  Therefore, I am starting a new thread with a very specific focus.  

 

Mr. Daniel Krause in another thread brilliantly researched and identified a potential owner of one of my bars for which I am eternally grateful.  In conjunction with my bar, he mentioned a fashion-trend among German officers involving ribbon-bars featuring a limited assortment of decorations.  I first heard about this from an old German collector many many years ago, but I completely forgot about it until now.  Apparently, some highly decorated officers with many awards had ribbon-bars created with a limited assortment of decorations.  This makes reasearching these bars very difficult and confusing!

 

I have at least one such ribbon bar in my collection.  It baffled me for many years.  There is a KO with X but no colonial ribbon.  There is no long service award.  There are no peacetime decorations.  Experienced collectors who saw it believed it might be a fantasy item.  Then, a very knowledgable Wuerttemberg collector sent me a photo of the owner wearing this exact same bar.  This officer selected only his Kriegsauszeuchnungen to wear on his battlefield tunic.

 

I am hoping others in the forum might show their "abreviated" bars to make this an interesting thread.  Best Regards.   

Feldsp Wuertt 9er KO4X.MVO.JPG

Franz v. Soden.jpg

Edited by Triad08
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Posted (edited)

Here is the Godet ribbon-bar Daniel Krause identified as belonging to Hauptmann Erich Menzel, adjutant to the military governor of Lille during the German occupation of Belgium.  Note his medal-bar (not mine, unfortunately) in contrast to his ribbon-bar, which features a limited assortment of his decorations.  I would love to ask Hauptmann Menzel why he chose to mount the Schwarzburg ribbon right after the EK2.  Regards.

Feldspange Schwarzburg 6er.png

Menzel Ordensspange.jpg

Edited by Triad08
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Hello

 

Thanks for sharing your nice ribbon bars.

 

About your first one, the second ribbon is not for Kronen Orden 4 Kl. mit X, it is for the knight cross with of House of Hohenzollern.

We have seen some of that kind of ribbon bar where there is no crown on the EK ribbon. With this information, it will be more easier to find the name now.

 

Here is the ribbon bar of Hauptmann Rudolf Barth for comparison

 

 

Christophe

 

 

Hauptmann Rudolf Barth.JPG

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Deruelle said:

About your first one, the second ribbon is not for Kronen Orden 4 Kl. mit X, it is for the knight cross with of House of Hohenzollern.  We have seen some of that kind of ribbon bar where there is no crown on the EK ribbon. With this information, it will be more easier to find the name now.  Here is the ribbon bar of Hauptmann Rudolf Barth for comparison.

 

Hi Christophe,  So you are saying the simple crossed swords without a crown could also be the HOH3X ?  Very interesting.

You've got a beautiful Saxon bar, by the way.  Fantastic.  Best regards.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Triad08
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Posted (edited)

Here's another ribbon-bar from my collection that falls into the category of a limited assortment of decorations.  It belonged to Generalmajor Hans Kannengiesser, commander of the 9th Ottoman Division.  Note his medal-bar (not mine, unfortunately) in contrast to his ribbon-bar.  He selected only his Kriegsauszeichnungen to wear on his battlefield tunic.  Both bars came from George Seymour's collection when they were sold at auction on behalf of his estate.  Regards.

Feldspange Kannengiesser.jpg

Kannengiesser Ordenssp.jpg

Edited by Triad08
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HI

 

Another example. Here is Oberst  Bernhard von Süßmilch from IR 139. In the first photo he is wearing his big medal bar for officiel photo. Here is ribbon bar.

 

On the second photo, the same officer has chosen to wear only its wartime medals.  Even if they received a lot of medals before the war, for those kind of officers the real medals are the wartime medals

 

Christophe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oberst  Bernhard von Süßmilch 01.jpg

Süsmiclch (4).JPG

Oberst  Bernhard von Süßmilch 01-4.jpg

Oberst  Bernhard von Süßmilch 01-5.jpg

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15 hours ago, Triad08 said:

It was gently pointed out to me that I was on the verge of hijacking somebody else's thread by posting some of my own material for review.  Therefore, I am starting a new thread with a very specific focus.  

 

Mr. Daniel Krause in another thread brilliantly researched and identified a potential owner of one of my bars for which I am eternally grateful.  In conjunction with my bar, he mentioned a fashion-trend among German officers involving ribbon-bars featuring a limited assortment of decorations.  I first heard about this from an old German collector many many years ago, but I completely forgot about it until now.  Apparently, some highly decorated officers with many awards had ribbon-bars created with a limited assortment of decorations.  This makes reasearching these bars very difficult and confusing!

 

I have at least one such ribbon bar in my collection.  It baffled me for many years.  There is a KO with X but no colonial ribbon.  There is no long service award.  There are no peacetime decorations.  Experienced collectors who saw it believed it might be a fantasy item.  Then, a very knowledgable Wuerttemberg collector sent me a photo of the owner wearing this exact same bar.  This officer selected only his Kriegsauszeuchnungen to wear on his battlefield tunic.

 

I am hoping others in the forum might show their "abreviated" bars to make this an interesting thread.  Best Regards.   

Feldsp Wuertt 9er KO4X.MVO.JPG

Franz v. Soden.jpg

Hello

 

Here is the Soden's ribbon bar sold by Kube in October 2002 (ex collection Siebentritt).

 

Christophe

 

 

soden (2).jpg

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Posted (edited)

@Komtur and @Deruelle :  the photos you've posted are excellent examples of selectively limiting awards on ribbon-bars.  I must admit, I have never seen the portrait of Prince Heinrich in a naval uniform wearing a ribbon bar.  And Oberst Suessmilch was making a strong statement by wearing only his Saxon combat awards and EKs.  By the way, his long ribbon-bar is extraordinary!

 

@Deruelle :  thank you for posting v. Soden's long bar.  I would kill to have that bar in my collection displayed next to his combat bar.  

 

Probably one of the best known examples of a ribbon-bar with a limited assortment of decorations belonged to Erich Ludendorff who had a massively long medal-bar.  Regards.     

Ludendorff x2.jpg

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1 hour ago, VtwinVince said:

Is that the ribbon of the Verdienstkreuz fuer Kriegshilfe in Ludendorff's button hole?

 

Hello.  That is exactly what it is... a ribbon for the Verdienstkreuz fuer Kriegshilfe.  I'm sure some people are wondering why a highly decorated officer such as Ludendorff would choose to wear this particular ribbon in his button hole.  Kaiser Wilhelm II established this award on 5 December 1916 and personally pinned these crosses on only 3 people:  His wife the Kaiserin, Hindenburg, and Ludendorff.  So I'm sure that is why Ludendorrf regarded this ribbon as special enough to wear in his button hole.  Regards.    

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This was a smart move from the Kaiser, the cross it self wasn't very fancy, due to lack of metal it was mainly produced from zinc. So if the Kaiserin, Hindenburg and Ludendorf wore them, then who could complain and saidthat this war merit cross is not a worthy honor cross? 

Same happened in the duchy of Brunswick when the 4th class of Henry the Lion was instituted, duke regent Johan Albrecht put it on his medal bar and nobody could complain about this new class which was given instead of the former knights cross 2nd class. 

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Posted (edited)
On 26/04/2021 at 14:15, BlackcowboyBS said:

Same happened in the duchy of Brunswick when the 4th class of Henry the Lion was instituted, duke regent Johan Albrecht put it on his medal bar and nobody could complain about this new class which was given instead of the former knights cross 2nd class. 

 

Hello. I think you make a very good point.  The Officers we talk about in this thread used these abreviated bars to make a statement or to project an image.  Christophe mentioned officers who wore only their wartime awards because for a true warrior, they were the "real" awards.  You talk about the Duke of Brunswick who also wanted to make a very specific statement by purposely wearing the newly instituted BrH4.   

 

I have a theory about Ludendorff's short ribbon bar.  In many pictures he is seen with his long ribbon bar.  So he was not shy about showing-off his awards.  In several pictures standing next to Hindenburg, however, we see him with his short-version ribbon bar.  Hindenburg had only a normal-sized bar so I think maybe Ludendorff wanted to avoid looking "more decorated" or looking like a "show-off" out of respect for his boss.  That is, of course, only a theory of mine.  Regards.        

Paul-von-Hindenburg-William-II-Erich-Ludendorff.jpg

Edited by Triad08
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Posted (edited)

Hello. Here is a bar from my collection that I am almost reluctant to post in this thread.  It is a short bar with only 5 awards.  The question is:  Does the bar belong to an officer with most of his awards pinned to his tunic and hanging from his neck?  Or is it one of those bars with a limited assortment of his decorations? perhaps just a representation of his favorite combat awards?  Or is it simply a regular bar?  Regards.   

Feldspange Wuertt 5er.jpg

Edited by Triad08
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6 hours ago, Triad08 said:

The question is:  Does the bar belong to an officer with most of his awards pinned to his tunic and hanging from his neck?

Given the Württembergian Order of the Crown I would suspect we have atleast a major here. That would mean two twings: 

1. There is probably a DA left off the ribbonbar, together with one or two Württembergian commemorative medals.

2. The abscence of 'lower' Württembergian orders like the Friedrichsorden and perhaps the WMVO suggests to me that those are worn around the neck.

 

All in all a nice ribbonbar

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Hello

 

What a nice Godet ribbon bar. A real gem, congrats. It is probably like your first ribbon bar  you posted above. For me it is a Prussian officer who received it. It is a wartime ribbon bar and probably more medals are missing.

In the Rangliste from 1925, Oberst von Stephany received the following wartime medals

- both EK, HOH3X, WK3XmL, BZ3aX, ÖM3K

and BM3X, SA3aX, HH, LK

- Before the war : KO4, DA25, Probably PZM, ÖF4

 

I'm not 100% this bar belonged to von Stephany, but for sure this officer received the same combo in a moment and he has probably made many more ribbon bar with new ribbon each time he received a new medal.

 

Christophe

 

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Hi Triad,

Why were you reluctant to post that nice Godet bar?

Addressing your core question for this thread, I think that the occurrence during the period was common.  Apart from wearer preference, the occasion, location of the event and other attendees might have dictated what bar was worn.  It would have been unwieldy to wear long bars outside of the most stiff functions, so well-decorated recipients would have often had variants of their bars - at the very least, previous versions of bars as their awards and bars grew.

Jewelers of the time would have tried to up-sell their customers as much as possible too, so having multiple examples of the same bar and/or variations of the same bar would have been a goal.

J-

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5 hours ago, David M said:

No text?

Here is his text, it was posted in black! 

Hi Triad,

Why were you reluctant to post that nice Godet bar?

Addressing your core question for this thread, I think that the occurrence during the period was common.  Apart from wearer preference, the occasion, location of the event and other attendees might have dictated what bar was worn.  It would have been unwieldy to wear long bars outside of the most stiff functions, so well-decorated recipients would have often had variants of their bars - at the very least, previous versions of bars as their awards and bars grew.

Jewelers of the time would have tried to up-sell their customers as much as possible too, so having multiple examples of the same bar and/or variations of the same bar would have been a goal.

J-

 

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Posted (edited)

@laurentius : Thank you kindly for your interpretation of the bar and its owner. Your theory that the absence of lower-ranked orders from Wuerttemberg suggests that they were worn as neck-orders makes a great deal of sense.  Also, I wasn't sure what the owner's rank might be due to my very limited knowledge about the award criteria for the Crown Order.  Thank you very much for your insights.

 

@Deruelle : Fantastic information, Christophe.  Thank you very much for taking the time to research the rank-lists.  I am in agreement with you that the award-combination allows for reasonable conjecture that the bar may have been one of several wartime bars Stephany may have owned.  With this information, I will try to do additional research on Stephany.  As always, I am very grateful for your input.

 

@JasonA : I was reluctant to post this bar because I was uncertain if it would fit the subject of this thread.  I think your informative post provides a great deal of insight into the reasons behind this curious and little-known practice even though, as you suggest, condensing the number of awards on bars was common during the period.  Thanks very much for your input.  

 

I'm still hoping a few more of the really serious ribbon bar collectors in the forum will post some of their bars featuring a limited assortment of their owners' awards.  Regards.           

Edited by Triad08
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