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Here’s an interesting item. Red Eagle Order 2 with Swords and Swords on Ring... with 60 year...

 

opinions as it appears to be Silver-Gilt and has screwed in Swords and soldered on swords on ring. 
 

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A peculiar bird, there are many things I find questionable on this RAO, especially the design of the eagle. My cross 4th class has a better one than this 2nd class piece. I'm not the most knowledgeable on these so I'll wait for the more experienced collectors to give their opinion.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

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It seems to be an about 80 years old at least major general earning a bravery decoration and getting such a decoration in another war before - respect!

 

If there really exist one - it should be easy to research him 😁

 

Regards, Komtur.

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I wonder why the  swords on the ring have different colors to the ones through the middle. I guess that if this was originally awarded and handed out, then they should look alike don't they? 

The 60 looks a little bit strange to me, I have a friend who is deep into this, I will sent him photos and ask his opinion on this. 

 

Swords are often mounted on old orders to rise their value, so I am allways suspicious, but I am not an expert on RAO.

 

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In my opinion the piece may be what the Germans call a zweitstueck (wearer's copy) dating from the 20s.  The first photo below shows what a pre-1918 Wagner piece with all-gold components should look like.  The second photo shows another post-1918 zweitstueck from the 20s or 30s in gilt bronze. 

 

None of these zweitstuecks ever look the same as the ones created during the Kaiserreich.  The original craftsmen and jewelers who made them systematically and routinely simply weren't around anymore.   

RAO2mXX.jpg

RAO Zeitstueck.jpg

Edited by Simius Rex
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I found the photos of this cross on eBay and enhanced them on my desktop so I could very carefully examined all the surfaces. 

 

The swords through the medallion and the suspension ring are all gilt silver.  The body of the cross and the surmounted swords along with the two ball finials are NOT gilded.  They have all the characteristics of being genuine gold.  So I have no idea why the seller on eBay described the cross as entirely gilt silver.  

 

The piece is signed "W" but the eagle looks nothing like any Wagner pattern I've seen.  Perhaps the medallion was damaged and replaced.  The medallion's retaining ring also looks atypical which further suggests that the medallion may have been replaced. 

 

In light of this information, I am inclined to believe that this piece has some fascinating history behind it... with gilt swords added to it in addition to its original gold swords "On the ring".  It was definitely NOT made post-war.  Whoever bought this on eBay for one thousand euro may very well have gotten the bargain of the year.   

RAO2XX eBay.jpg

Edited by Simius Rex
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I’m not sure what to think of it but feel it’s a real RAO but I’m confused about the swords and the looks of the eagle. I think the eagle is nice but not the quality I’ve seen of early period orders. 

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Also, I’m curious if ever a person was awarded such an award in WW1.  
it looks really but as stated, the Eagle looks late or post war and the 60 would mean about 1858

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On 02/05/2021 at 17:27, Komtur said:

It seems to be an about 80 years old at least major general earning a bravery decoration and getting such a decoration in another war before - respect!  If there really exist one - it should be easy to research him 😁

 

@Komtur  Please help us better understand what we are looking at.  You theorize that the recipient of the cross was around 80 years of age and had the rank of major general or higher.  He earned a bravery decoration in a war and then earned another bravery decoration in a subsequent war... hence the two sets of swords.

 

I'm trying to connect all the dots in my head.  Is the following an accurate, expanded interpretation of your post... 

 

1.) The recipient earned an RAO3X. 

 

2.) Subsequently, he earned an RAO2 in peacetime but was also entitled to Swords On The Ring for his previous RAO3X. 

 

3.) Subsequently, he earned an RAO2X (or he was awarded swords for his RAO2) so swords had to be installed on his existing RAO2mitXamRing transforming it into a RAO2XX.  Since the swords intersecting the medallion are silver-gilt, it may be reasonable to assume that the swords to his RAO2 were awarded sometime during the final years of WW1. 

 

4.) Concurrent to the awarding of the RAO2X (or swords for his RAO2) he hit the 60-year milestone of active military service and was therefore entitled to the 60-year jubilee device.

 

Is this more or less what you had in mind?

 

A final thought.  I think the eagle-medallion is a replacement because the original may have been damaged or lost.  Heck... it may have been damaged somehow when the swords were added.  Thank you very much in advance for your answers.  Best regards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

Edited by Triad08
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15 minutes ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

@Komtur@Triad08

I may be wrong, but wouldn’t  oak leaves be present on such a award? Especially with such long service, previous awarded classes would have made sense, or would oak leaves make it to bulky and it was of the opinion of the owner

 

Hello.  It is my understanding that oak leaves for the 2nd class were meant to signify the exact same cross awarded a second time.  In other words, an RAO2 followed by another RAO2, or an RAO2X followed by another RAO2X.  Regards.

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10 hours ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

@Triad08

according to eherenzeichen-orden, the oak leaves signified the upgrade from a previous award of a lower class, similar to the scheilfe  of the 3rd class.

 

The website you mention is highly informative and extremely useful, but as Sascha Wöschler and others have previously pointed out, it sometimes contains errors and often has incomplete information.  When I want to understand details about a decoration with award criteria as complex as the Red Eagle, I go right to the source... the complete statutes of the order itself with all the relevant amendments...

 

https://ordensmuseum.de/Ordensstatuten/preusen/roter-adler-orden/

 

However, I was trying to focus on the physical details of the cross itself presented in the first post.  I think it is confusing and potentially misleading to try and engage in an academic discussion of what it ought to look like or what it ought to have, versus what it actually is.  The cross lacks oak leaves and, therefore, oak leaves should not really be a component of the main discussion.  What we have is, very simply, a gold 2nd class cross, gold swords on the ring, silver-gilt swords durch die Mitte, and a 60-year jubilee device.  I am still hoping that Komtur could comment on whether or not the scenario I described is an accurate interpretation of his statement.  Regards.  

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1 hour ago, CRBeery said:

Just send the photos to Andreas/Medalnet. Chances are he already knows the cross.

 

Okay... I just wrote him an email asking him to comment.  If this piece turns out to be good, I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who purchased it. 

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Well I hate to spoil the party, but I have shown the photos to 3 knowledgable collectors. the first is a collector of prussian awards, the second is specialized in Red eagles and the third has deep knowledge in jubilee devices for the red eagle and so on. 

All three of them responded in the same way, all three said that this cross is not an original or an awarded piece. 

To be honest I guees this was the message of komtur as well, he is very kind and has good manner, so I guess he didn't want to make his statement in a cruel way but instead a polite one, claiming that the scenario in which one person could get such an award is highly unplausibly.

Edited by BlackcowboyBS
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1 hour ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

To be honest I guess this was the message of Komtur as well, he is very kind and has good manners, so I guess he didn't want to make his statement in a cruel way but instead a polite one, claiming that the scenario in which one person could get such an award is highly implausibly.

 

Hello.  In other words, it was not Komtur's words we were supposed to take seriously, but the smiley-face at the end of his post.  Damn these modern-day Germans and their polite sarcasm.  I miss the old days, when the Germans communicated their messages clearly and unambiguously... you know, like the message they sent to Poland on September 1, 1939.  (Smiley Face LOL) Regards.

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2 hours ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

... claiming that the scenario in which one person could get such an award is highly unplausibly.

Indeed this was the main point I tried to express with my comment.

 

A second class Red Eagle Order was an award for ranks of major generals and similar navy or civil ranks, sometimes for one rank lower or higher. A jubilee device was handed out, if a decoration was awarded explicitly for a service jubilee. In that case the person must have been in active service for 60 years. It is quite impossible to be a major general in the Prussian Army and serve active for such a long time, because there was no official position, where an officer could persevere in that rank until his at least 76th year of life. But let us imagine, this happend nevertheless. Then our aged general must have been at war after his 60th jubilee to earn the swords to his order.

 

Highly unplausible is the best phrase for that scenario.

 

Regards, Komtur.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Triad08 said:

 

... I miss the old days, when the Germans communicated their messages clearly and unambiguously... you know, like the message they sent to Poland on September 1, 1939 ...

Well, what should we do, losing two wars, even though having the cuter uniforms and the superior sausages. We were forced to change our attitudes at least.

 

Without smiley, Komtur.

Edited by Komtur
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1 hour ago, Komtur said:

Well, what should we do, losing two wars, even though having the cuter uniforms and the superior sausages.

 

What Komtur says is absolutely true.  My ex-wife attended the University of Bonn and dated a few German guys.  She reminded me many, many times during our marriage that Germans, indeed, have superior sausages.  🤙

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36 minutes ago, medalnet said:

This is how the real thing looks like. (None Godet made)

App0026.jpg

I figured there should've been oak leaves, made me a little suspicious with out them. Now I can't image many of this particular RAO was awarded, is there a set number of awards? Phenomenal as always Andreas, you are the envy of many a collector.  

Edited by 91-old-inf-reg
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