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Austrian ribbon bar with golden bar and swords


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Hello,

 

I have this Austrian ribbon bar in my collection. I know that with regards to the ribbon of the Military Merit Cross/ Bravery Medal it is generally nearly impossibile to say which award (Military Merit Cross, Bravery Medal, Merit Cross with Crown, Military Merit Medal etc.) is meant. But since the bars to the awards were normally silver coloured I am wondering whether the award can be narrowed down in this case. In the past I have seen sometimes Military Merit Crosses with a golden bar and swords. Does anyone know whether this was official and if so whether it was only allowed to Military Merit Crosses or also to other awards?

 

Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

 

Thanks and best regards

hoh1851

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FSP-KuK-10-001 1.1.JPG

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Posted (edited)
On 19/05/2021 at 04:46, hoh1851 said:

I know that with regards to the ribbon of the Military Merit Cross/ Bravery Medal it is generally nearly impossibile to say which award is meant.

 

I have seen sometimes Military Merit Crosses with a golden bar and swords. Does anyone know whether this was official and if so whether it was only allowed to Military Merit Crosses or also to other awards?

 

To suggest that it is "almost impossible" to determine which award is represented is a serious misconception.  For experienced collectors in this field, the bars with multiple bravery ribbons can be successfully and accurately interpreted and deciphered almost all the time.

 

Your 3 bravery ribbons have swords-devices, and from that we know right away that the owner was an officer.  The first bravery ribbon starting from the RIGHT is a Signum Laudis bronze, followed by a Signum Laudis Silver. These are followed by a Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration awarded with Swords on the Ribbon.  There is a Repeat Clasp on this ribbon because he was awarded the MVK3mKD twice.

 

Regulations state that an officer could be awarded the MVK3mKD up to three times.  A three-time recipient would wear 2 repeat-clasps attached to his original bravery ribbon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Simius Rex
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Hi Simius Rex,

 

Many thanks for your reply and the valuable hints. 🙂 These are good news.

Until now I didn't know that swords-devices  were only given to officers. Is there a regulation available showing this?

From knowing this is it also possible to determine the award beeing represented by the first bravery ribbon from the left at this bar?

 

Any help is really appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

 

Sincerly

hoh1851

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Posted (edited)

There was absolutely no BREAST DECORATION higher in grade than the Leopold Ritter on your bar that would have been worn on the Bravery Ribbon.  (Some collectors call the Bravery Ribbon the War Ribbon, the origins of which are found in the early 19th century.) 

 

There is a strong possiblity that the owner was trying to represent a badge NOT worn on the breast... for example an MVK2 or an FJO officer or commander.  This would be comparable to a Kleindekoration mounted on a trefold ribbon representing a higher grade of an award pinned to the tunic, worn on the neck, or suspended from a sash. 

 

There were actually no strict rules that applied to Austrian ribbon bars other than observance of award-precedence and accurate utilization of devices.  Ribbon bars were regarded as a simple, convenient and practical way to represent awards on a field tunic.   

 

I would like to mention that I have never seen German Sicherheitshaken used on Austrian ribbon bars such as the three that are present on your bar.  These were speacialized "safety" hooks used by professional German medal bar assemblers for suspending medals by means of their rings.  On Austrian ribbon bars, we usually see tension-hooks or sewing-hooks (i.e. the so-called hook & eye system hook) sewn onto the reverse.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

Edited by Simius Rex
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Posted (edited)

Hello.  I searched the forum threads for the official order of precedence for KuK awards but could not find one, so I am presenting the "Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen in Österreich-Ungarn" here below. 

 

The only two breast awards higher than the Leopold Order Knights Cross are the St. Stephen Order's Knights Cross and the Maria Theresia Order's Knights Cross and neither were worn on the Austrian bravery ribbon.  Therefore, the only two possible and logical choices for the award represented by the bravery ribbon after the Leopold Knight are 1.) the Franz Joseph Order's Commander's Cross or 2.) the Military Merit Cross 2nd Class.  Regards.  

 

    Orden vom Goldenen Vlies
    Großkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
    Großkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
    Militärverdienstkreuz I. Klasse
    Großkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
    Orden der Eisernen Krone I. Klasse
    Großkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Kommandeurkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
    Kommandeurkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
    Militärverdienstkreuz II. Klasse
    Kommandeurkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
    Orden der Eisernen Krone II. Klasse
    Kommandeurkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Ritterkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
    Ritterkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
    Ritterkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
    Stern des Ehrenzeichens für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Offizierskreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Orden der Eisernen Krone III. Klasse
    Ritterkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Militärverdienstkreuz III. Klasse
    Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz I. Klasse
    Geistliches Verdienstkreuz I. Klasse
    Insigne der Elisabeth-Theresien-Stiftung
    Erinnerungszeichen an Feldmarschall Erzherzog Albrecht
    Ehrenzeichen für Kunst und Wissenschaft
    Geistliches Verdienstkreuz II. Klasse
    Große (Goldene) Militär-Verdienstmedaille
    Silberne Militär-Verdienstmedaille
    Bronzene Militär-Verdienstmedaille
    Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille
    Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste I. Klasse
    Offiziersehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Goldenes Verdienstkreuz
    Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille I. Klasse
    Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille II. Klasse
    Bronzene Tapferkeitsmedaille
    Silbernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
    Silbernes Verdienstkreuz
    Eisernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
    Eisernes Verdienstkreuz
    Kriegsmedaille
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste II. Klasse
    Erinnerungsmedaille 1864
    Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1848
    Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1866
    Karl-Truppenkreuz
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste III. Klasse
    Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Offiziere
    Ehrenmedaille für 40-jährige Dienste
    Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Offiziere
    Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Offiziere
    Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz II. Klasse
    Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Mannschaften
    Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Mannschaften
    Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Mannschaften
    Landsturmmedaille 1908
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste IV. Klasse
    Silberne Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Jubiläums-Hof-Medaille
    Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für die bewaffnete Macht
    Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für Zivilstaatsbedienstete
    Jubiläumskreuz 1908
    Militär-Jubiläumskreuz
    Jubliäumskreuz für Zivilstaatsbedienstete
    Gedenkzeichen an Kaiser und König Franz Joseph I.
    Bosnisch-Hercegovinische Erinnerungsmedaille
    Erinnerungskreuz 1912/13
    Seereise-Denkmünze 1892/93
    Verwundetenmedaille
    Bronzene Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Feuerwehr- und Rettungsmedaille
    Ehrenritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens
    Ehrenritterkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
    Erinnerungszeichen für die Ritter vom Goldenen Sporn
    Marianer-Halskreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
    Donatritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens
    Marianerkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
    Insigne des in Tirol immatrikulierten Adels

Edited by Triad08
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Posted (edited)

There was a given precedence for k.u.k. orders and medals, but sometimes it was not followed by the makers of ribbon bars. Your can see this precedence in the "Personalverordnungsblatt für das k.u.k. Heer" (see below) where all awards during WW1 were published.

 

They were ranked (following Michteschläger, see below):

.

.

.

Komturkreuz Leopold-Orden

Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Kl.

Orden der Eisernen Krone 2. Kl.

Ritterkreuz Leopold-Orden

Offizierskreuz Franz Joseph-Orden

Orden der Eisernen Krone 3. Kl.

Ritterkreuz Franz Joseph-Orden

Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille für Offiziere

Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille für Offiziere

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl.

Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille am Bande des des Militärverdienstkreuzes

Bronzene Militärverdienstmedaille am Bande Militärverdienstkreuzes
.

.

.

 

Following this precedure the ribbon bar above should contain:

 

Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Kl.

Ritterkreuz Leopold-Orden

Ritterkreuz Franz Joseph-Orden (peacetime)

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl. (most appearent, but could be Silberne MVM.X too)

Bronzene MVM.X

Kriegsmedaille

Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl.

 

BUT: some weeks ago I could take a look on an estate of a k.u.k. Oberst and arty brigade commander. Here was the precedure different:

 

Komturkreuz Franz Joseph Orden with swords

Ritterkreuz Leopold-Orden

Orden der Eisernen Krone 3. Kl.

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl.

SMVM.X

BMVM.X

Karl-Truppenkreuz

 

However, it is most likely that the above ribbon bar contains a commander Franz Joseph then a MVK 2. Kl. Otherwise in most cases there would be an Iron Crown 2. Cl. between them.

 

Anyway both combinations would be very rare.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

Rangordnung k.u.k. Orden.jpg

Personalverordnungsblatt 47-1918.JPG

Edited by Christian1962
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6 minutes ago, Christian1962 said:

However, it is most likely that the above ribbon bar contains a commander Franz Joseph then a MVK 2. Kl.

 

Hello.  Yes... this was exactly my conclusion as stated above.  Regards.

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I could find out one most likely candidate for that ribbon bar:

 

Generalmajor Ernst von Terboglaw.

 

He owned:

 

MVK 2.X, LO-R.X, FJO-O, MVK.3.X, BMVM.X, KM, EK2.

 

This would provide that he did not wear the full size peacetime FJO-O on his breast pocket but just on the ribbon bar.  The combination of MVK2.X, LO-R.X and a peacetime FJO (R or O) appears to be a real rare case. But in addition with MVK.3.X and BMVM.X, KM and EK2 it could be a single case!

 

Here a potrait of him for comparison:

https://picryl.com/media/gmernst-edler-vterboglaw-bcdf8b

 

I could not find the variant FJO-K.X, LO-R.X, FJO (peacetime), MVK.3.X, BMVM.X, ... anyway.

 

You can check it out  yourself there:

Steiner Jörg, Schematismus der Generale und Obersten der k.u.k. Armee - Stand 31.12.1918.

https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/view/Andere_Steiner_1992/?pg=0&layout=s

 

Regards

 

Christian

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Posted (edited)

I am inclined to agree with the assessments of Triad and Christian... FJO Commander or MVK2X for ribbon number 1.

 

I was visiting a German forum this morning and one of its members proclaimed that it could be the Gold MVM (aka Grosse Signum Laudis) because the Gold MVM was worn on a bravery ribbon and ranked higher than the Leopold.  SAY WHAT???  😳

 

Somebody needs to send these German experts a copy of the K-u-K Order of Precedence for awards.  Either that, or tell them to come to GMIC for a proper and correct answer to their questions on this subject!  😃 🙃

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Simius Rex
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Many thanks to all of you for your kind assistance and the helpful information and of course for the identification of the former owner. 😀

 

Best regards

hoh1851

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18 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

I was visiting a German forum this morning and one of its members proclaimed that it could be the Gold MVM (aka Grosse Signum Laudis) because the Gold MVM was worn on a bravery ribbon and ranked higher than the Leopold.  SAY WHAT???  😳

I absolutely agree. And you do not need to look far...

 

387805239_Rangordnungk.u.k.Orden-GMVM.thumb.jpg.e38e22f04863b02480ec0b4c3b8de0c2.jpg

 

Hermann Pokorny (already as a Hungarian general) with GMVM before the Order of Leopold.

 

PokornyHerman1925.jpg.f6d8928a86e027cebe70cb3318dfcabc.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Hello.  It might be useful to post a copy of the relevant Austro-Hungarian Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen, and not one issued by the remnants of the gutted KuK War Ministry following the fall of the monarchy.  The final and official Rangordnung of the A-H Monarchy that bore the approval of Emperor Karl was published in 1917.  In this official ordering of precedence, the Golden Military Merit Medal was to be worn before the Leopold and Iron Crown.  For imperial period collectors, this is the Rangordnung that matters.  I'm not sure a picture of a Hungarian officer from the Horthy era can be regarded as a very relevant example.  The Hungarians under Horthy eventually came-up with their own regulations on how to wear awards.  Regards.

 

    Orden vom Goldenen Vlies
    Großkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
    Großkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
    Militärverdienstkreuz I. Klasse
    Großkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
    Orden der Eisernen Krone I. Klasse
    Großkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Kommandeurkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
    Kommandeurkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
    Militärverdienstkreuz II. Klasse
    Kommandeurkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
    Orden der Eisernen Krone II. Klasse
    Kommandeurkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Ritterkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens
    Ritterkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens
    Ritterkreuz des Leopold-Ordens
    Stern des Ehrenzeichens für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Offizierskreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Orden der Eisernen Krone III. Klasse
    Ritterkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens
    Militärverdienstkreuz III. Klasse
    Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz I. Klasse
    Geistliches Verdienstkreuz I. Klasse
    Insigne der Elisabeth-Theresien-Stiftung
    Erinnerungszeichen an Feldmarschall Erzherzog Albrecht
    Ehrenzeichen für Kunst und Wissenschaft
    Geistliches Verdienstkreuz II. Klasse
    Große (Goldene) Militär-Verdienstmedaille
    Silberne Militär-Verdienstmedaille
    Bronzene Militär-Verdienstmedaille
    Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille
    Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste I. Klasse
    Offiziersehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Goldenes Verdienstkreuz
    Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille I. Klasse
    Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille II. Klasse
    Bronzene Tapferkeitsmedaille
    Silbernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
    Silbernes Verdienstkreuz
    Eisernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone
    Eisernes Verdienstkreuz
    Kriegsmedaille
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste II. Klasse
    Erinnerungsmedaille 1864
    Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1848
    Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1866
    Karl-Truppenkreuz
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste III. Klasse
    Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Offiziere
    Ehrenmedaille für 40-jährige Dienste
    Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Offiziere
    Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Offiziere
    Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz II. Klasse
    Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Mannschaften
    Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Mannschaften
    Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Mannschaften
    Landsturmmedaille 1908
    Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste IV. Klasse
    Silberne Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Jubiläums-Hof-Medaille
    Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für die bewaffnete Macht
    Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für Zivilstaatsbedienstete
    Jubiläumskreuz 1908
    Militär-Jubiläumskreuz
    Jubliäumskreuz für Zivilstaatsbedienstete
    Gedenkzeichen an Kaiser und König Franz Joseph I.
    Bosnisch-Hercegovinische Erinnerungsmedaille
    Erinnerungskreuz 1912/13
    Seereise-Denkmünze 1892/93
    Verwundetenmedaille
    Bronzene Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz
    Feuerwehr- und Rettungsmedaille
    Ehrenritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens
    Ehrenritterkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
    Erinnerungszeichen für die Ritter vom Goldenen Sporn
    Marianer-Halskreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
    Donatritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens
    Marianerkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens
    Insigne des in Tirol immatrikulierten Adels

Edited by Triad08
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2 hours ago, Lukasz Gaszewski said:

I absolutely agree. And you do not need to look far...

 

387805239_Rangordnungk.u.k.Orden-GMVM.thumb.jpg.e38e22f04863b02480ec0b4c3b8de0c2.jpg

 

Hermann Pokorny (already as a Hungarian general) with GMVM before the Order of Leopold.

 

PokornyHerman1925.jpg.f6d8928a86e027cebe70cb3318dfcabc.jpg

It´s no question that GMVM ranked before LO-K and LO-R but this not the point regarding the ribbon bar above because Pokorny owned EKO3.KD(X?) and not FJO (peacetime). That rules him out as owner anyway.

 

Regards

 

Christian

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Posted (edited)

I did not mean to say the ribbon bar would belong to Pokorny. It was just an example of GMVM being worn before LO-R.

 

Interesting is the lack of the Order of the Iron Crown 3rd Class on the ribbon bar, which may suggest that the recipient was awarded with a higher class.

Edited by Lukasz Gaszewski
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The sequence of wearing the awards of Hungary at Horthy, taking into account the Austro-Hungarian awards https://kituntetes.webnode.hu/kituntetesek/horthy-korszak/viselesi-sorrendek/

Order of precedence of orders and medals of the Austro-Hungarian Empire during the First World War https://ah.org.ua/poryadok-starshinstva-ordenov-i-medalej-avstro-vengerskoj-imperii-perioda-pervoj-mirovoj-vojny

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Posted (edited)

Hello,

 

assuming that the Feldspange is originally mounted, I'd be pretty confident that its first place represents the Große Militärverdienstmedaille (either with the portrait of Emperor Franz Joseph or Karl), followed by further breast decorations (among them, a FJO awarded in peacetime).

 

Best wishes,

 

Enzo (E.L.)

Edited by Elmar Lang
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5 hours ago, Elmar Lang said:

I'd be pretty confident that its first place represents the Große Militärverdienstmedaille (either with the portrait of Emperor Franz Joseph or Karl), followed by further breast decorations (among them, a FJO awarded in peacetime).

 

Hello to Enzo.  You are confident that the ribbon-bar under discussion features the Große Militärverdienstmedaille in the first position?  There were a total of nineteen - 19 - KuK-officers who received this award, (not counting 9 Germans and 1 Turk).  These officers were some of the most important and most renowned military leaders of the Empire.  Are you suggesting that the OP, by some serendipitous coincidence, ended-up with a ribbon-bar belonging to one of the famous military personalities listed below?  Regards. 

 

Generaloberst Erzherzog Eugen

Linienschiffsleutnant Gottfried Banfield

Generaloberst Eduard Graf Paar

Generaloberst Arthur Freiherr von Bolfras

Generaloberst Karl Freiherr von Pflanzer-Baltin

Generaloberst Svetozar Boroevic von Bojna

Feldmarschall Erzherzog Friedrich

Generaloberst Franz Freiherr Conrad von Hötzendorf

Generaloberst Friedrich Freiherr von Georgi

Generaloberst Samuel von Hazai

Generaloberst Hermann Kövess von Kövessháza

Generaloberst Eduard von Böhm-Ermolli

Generaloberst Alexander Ritter von Krobatin

Generaloberst Erzherzog Joseph

General der Infanterie Arthur Freiherr Arz von Straussenburg

General der Infanterie Alfred Krauss

General der Kavallerie Alois Fürst Schönburg-Hartenstein

Feldmarschall Franz Freiherr Rohr von Denta

Oberstleutnant in Generalstab Hermann Pokorny

 

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Posted (edited)

Hello,

 

my "pretty confidence" is under the condition that -as said- the bar is originally mounted, because there is no other "Kriegsband"-fitted award before the Knight of the Leopold Orden, than the Große Militärverdienstmedaille.

 

By the way, yes, such a Feldspange could have reached the market and a collector.

 

For instance, I have that medal, that under serendipitous coincidence, ended up in my humble collection of A-H awards...

Edited by Elmar Lang
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Hello again to Enzo.  I am not clear on why you have ruled-out a Halskreuz.  Other posters including me seem to feel that this would have been a logical and likely choice.  Kleindekorations representing non-breast decorations were worn all the time on trefold ribbons, and this ribbon mounted before the Leopold would be analogous to that. Regards.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Triad08 said:

 

Hello to Enzo.  You are confident that the ribbon-bar under discussion features the Große Militärverdienstmedaille in the first position?  There were a total of nineteen - 19 - KuK-officers who received this award, (not counting 9 Germans and 1 Turk).  These officers were some of the most important and most renowned military leaders of the Empire.  Are you suggesting that the OP, by some serendipitous coincidence, ended-up with a ribbon-bar belonging to one of the famous military personalities listed below?  Regards. 

 

Generaloberst Erzherzog Eugen

Linienschiffsleutnant Gottfried Banfield

Generaloberst Eduard Graf Paar

Generaloberst Arthur Freiherr von Bolfras

Generaloberst Karl Freiherr von Pflanzer-Baltin

Generaloberst Svetozar Boroevic von Bojna

Feldmarschall Erzherzog Friedrich

Generaloberst Franz Freiherr Conrad von Hötzendorf

Generaloberst Friedrich Freiherr von Georgi

Generaloberst Samuel von Hazai

Generaloberst Hermann Kövess von Kövessháza

Generaloberst Eduard von Böhm-Ermolli

Generaloberst Alexander Ritter von Krobatin

Generaloberst Erzherzog Joseph

General der Infanterie Arthur Freiherr Arz von Straussenburg

General der Infanterie Alfred Krauss

General der Kavallerie Alois Fürst Schönburg-Hartenstein

Feldmarschall Franz Freiherr Rohr von Denta

Oberstleutnant in Generalstab Hermann Pokorny

 

 

I have checked out now all owners of GMVM.X.  No one of them owned a peacetime FJO of any grade.

 

That fact should rule out the variant with GMVM.X on that bar we are discussing.

 

But let´s make another experiment: let us assume the first ribbon stands for al GMVM.X which orders and medals could follow?

 

Variant 1:

GMVM.X

LO-KmtK.X

FJO-KmtK/St (peacetime) - which just was owned by FZM Tamásy (who held no GMVM.X)

FJO-KmtK.X

MVK.3.X

KM 1873

EK2

 

Variant 2:

GMVM.X

LO-KmtK.X

FJO-KmtK (peacetime) - which was not held by any GMVM-holder

FJO-O.X

MVK.3.X

 

Variant:

GMVM.X

LO-R.X

FJO-every grade (peacetime) - which was not held by any GMVM-holder

...

 

All following variants are not worth discussing them.

 

In my humble opinion that would rule out GMVM.X at this ribbon bar anyway. Therefore I would like to follow Triad´s argumentation.

 

At the other hand, if we look onto the variant MVK.2.X and LO-R.X we find:

Hugo Martiny

Hugo Edler von Habermann

Ernst Horsetzky von Hornthal

Ferdinand Kosak

Heinrich Goinger

Gustav Szekély de Doba

Gabriel Graf Marenzi

Viktor Bauer von Bauernthal

Karl von Stöhr

Franz Weiss-Tihany-Mainprugg

Karl Steiger

Eugen Edler von Luxardo

Ladislaus Jonik von Jamny

Julius Phleps

Josef Pacor von Karstenfels

Paul Hegedüs

Livius Borotha

Georg Ritter von Szypniewski

Viktor Edler von Kandler

Johann Schwalb

Dr. h.c. Eduard Fischer

Balthasar Pintar

Josef Freiherr von Janecka

Johann Haas von Haagenfels

Franz Graf Zedtwitz

Oskar Minnich

Heinrich Freiherr von Salis-Samaden

Ludwig Rath

Adolf Kornhaber von Pilis

Franz Edler von Haam

Alfred Edler von Hinke

Johann Ritter von Mossig

Rudolf Obauer von Bannerfeld

Walter Schreitter von Schwarzfeld

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

Ferencz Biffl von Pilca

 

Now let´s have a look who out of this group owned a peacetime FJO-O/R:

Dr. h.c. Eduard Fischer

Paul Hegedüs

Josef Pacor von Karstenfels

Julius Phleps

Johann Schwalb

Walter Schreitter von Schwarzfeld

Gustav Szekély de Doba

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

Franz Graf Zedtwitz

 

Now we exclude all who owned an EKO.3 because this is not on the bar, who will reach the next level:

Johann Schwalb

Walter Schreitter von Schwarzfeld

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

 

And now we look who out the last three officers owned to more decorations with swords and in addition KM 1873 and EK2:

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

 

Again in my humble opinion it´s a little bit more convincing.

 

We could now discuss another variant:

FJO-KmtK.X

LO-R.X

FJO-O/R (peacetime)

 

But there is not one officer from colonel upwards who held that combination. Maybe there are some few from lieutnant-colonel downwards, but I can´t check that now.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

 

Edited by Christian1962
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On 19/05/2021 at 10:46, hoh1851 said:

 

FSP-KuK-10-001 1.0.JPG

 

Coming back to the first bar, which was kind of left alone,  it can be said it was certainly the Bundesstaat issue, from between 1934 and 1938. There is the ribbon of the renewed Militärdienstzeichen of 1934 (not to mention the Kriegserinnerungsmedaille of 1932 and Hungarian Haborús Emlékérem of 1929). The mounting is without doubt the pre-Anschluss type.

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Many thanks again to all of you for this interesting discussion and the additional information. Speaking of the Bundesheer ribbon bar I saw that there are several Austrian Hungarian rank lists and schematismus online.

Are the Bundesheer Schematismus/ Dienstranglisten somewhere online as well?

 

Meanwhile I found some further pictures of Generalmajor Edler von Terboglaw in the Austrian National Archives but unfortunately only one is showing him wearing a ribbon bar. This photo was taken before the awarding of MVK2 and moreover it's of poor quality so not really suitable for a comparison.

 

Best regards and thanks again

hoh1851

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I have no evidence that ÖBH-Schematimen are oneline anwhere but I think I can help you researching in my own database. There are not so many officers with this combination of decorations as I assumed. Most of them had an EKO.3.X and/or an order of the Austrian Republic or the Prussian EK2. This narrows the candidates quite down:

 

Oberstleutnant Franz Reicher (IR 5)

grafik.png.eb0bd5878e782de84ee6e16183b891e0.png

 

You must know that the Tyrolian War Medal 1914 - 1918 was not listed in Schematismus. And they were not very accurate with foreign medals such as the Hungarian war medal.

Reicher is the best match for active officers between 1928 (first printed Schematismus) and 1937 (last printed). It is evident that there could have been retired officers who never were listed in a Schematismus.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

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I have tried to find out the correct precedence of k.u.k. orders with help of a friend who works in the Austrian State Archives. There was just a single sheet to find:

 

grafik.thumb.png.e1267498298cf9b45e7bd2fe07f5a21f.png

 

Another file would have been more interesting but it is missed. This special file was the reply of the Obersthofmeisteramt to Michetschläger when he asked for the precendence for his book.

 

BUT: so we can assume that he published the correct precedence in his book on base of this reply!

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

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