HAIG: Too Many Crowns?

[filfoster]

Field Marshal the Earl Haig seems to have a surplus crown on his shoulder straps. He wears the crossed batons wreath, surmounted by a small crown, per regulations, but also was what looks like a holdover badge, the larger rank crown, from his previous generals rank on each strap. (Photos of King George V also seem to show the larger crown.). Why is he wearing these 'extra' larger crowns?

[filfoster]

"...crossed batons within an oak and laurel wreath, surmounted by a crown.."   Well, here's two crowns. That ain't right, is it? Of course, he's a field marshal and friend of the King so I suppose he could wear whatever, but...

Edited August 2, 2022 by filfoster

[SillyOldGrandad]

It looks correct to me. Crossed batons within a wreath with a large seperate crown above. 

[filfoster]

My understanding of the regs specify only a single small crown surmounting the crossed batons within the wreath. Not a small and larger crown, both.  The field marshal batons and wreath badge does NOT include an integral crown at the top. It is a separate badge in the examples I actually have. Does anyone have any better information, please?

Edited August 10, 2022 by filfoster

[SillyOldGrandad]

What small crown?. There is no small crown, just a large crown above the wreath and crossed batons.    Pete.

[filfoster]

11 hours ago, SillyOldGrandad said:

What small crown?. There is no small crown, just a large crown above the wreath and crossed batons.    Pete.

Pete:  A considerable part of the problem is finding online photos which clearly show this insignia. The subjects were photographed at angles which do not clearly show the smaller crown, which was regulation part of the FM insignia. I will post other pictures later today. Haig (and the King) at this time wear metal Field Marshal devices, the crossed batons within a wreath, surmounted by a small gilt King's Crown, and also the larger, 'Major' rank crown with the velvet insets. These photos do not clearly show them. These are the best I can do. I need someone who is familiar with these uniforms to explain the larger and smaller crowns. Only the smaller crown was needed, per the regulations that I know. In WW2, for example, there are no photos I've found that show the two crowns being worn by Alexander, Dill, Alan Brooke, etc. I speculate that the regs were not 'nailed down' in WW1 as it was the first time the rank was worn with Khaki Service Dress and the larger crown was likely a 'holdover' device from the next lower full general insignia.

11 hours ago, SillyOldGrandad said:

What small crown?. There is no small crown, just a large crown above the wreath and crossed batons.    Pete.

Pete: Perhaps these photos will help. Sir John French is shown wearing the 'regulation' insignia: The laurel wreath enclosing crossed batons with a very small King's Crown surmounting. Yes, I know it's difficult to see but magnify the photo if you can.

Haig is shown wearing this AND the larger King's Crown of Major rank size above it. There is NO REGULATION I can find that specifies this. Why is it worn? Does it reflect an ADC status? Haig was ADC to King George V. and the King was ADC to his father, Edward VII. If so, I cannot find any regs for this, so have asked this board/forum for help.

Edited August 11, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

....For good measure, and contrast, I have included here the photo of WW2 FM Sir Harold Alexander which shows the simple FM insignia with the small crown only. Not to confuse things, but he also wears the monogram of George VI below it to signify honorary ADC.

NOTE: The small crown is a SEPERATE piece. Alexander wears it spaced generously above the wreath, which WW1 FM's seem not to have done. Tailor's/valet's choice?

Edited August 11, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

I would also recommend seeing again in enlargement, the IWM photo in the initial post above which DOES show, albeit at an angle, the small metal crown BETWEEN the larger king's crown in the center of the shoulder strap, and the top of the laurel wreath surround.

Edited August 11, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

HERE!  There ain't supposed to be two crowns here! Why are there? See the little metal crown? That's 'regulation'. The bigger one is the mystery. Unless it's an ADC peculiarity, it's wrong. Of course, I can't now tell the King and Haig it's wrong but it's a mystery. Does anyone know why this is done?

[filfoster]

A friend suggested that it's a CIGS distinction but that seems unlikely as the King also wears it and I cannot find that Haig ever served as CIGS. Robertson and Henry Wilson were CIGS during the war.

Here's a near-useless tinted photo, because of the angle, of King George V with the extra doo dads.:

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Until someone who knows can post, my tentative opinion is that the larger rank crown was left on after promotion because the regs were vague about whether the crown was the one that was part of (not actually attached, though) the FM device or the more familiar, larger rank crown used for full general, to be used.

[SillyOldGrandad]

I have to admit it's a new one on me. At a guess I would say that, on the introduction of the large crowns, they should have replaced the small ones but clearly in some cases that never happened. Strange!!.    Pete.

[filfoster]

I believe, based on insignia currently available, (although there are no longer to be Field Marshals newly created), the small crowns continue to be part of the insignia for this rank, as they were during the Great War and all times between.  I believe the initial regulations were vaguely enough worded (please God, someone contribute the actual WW1 regulation wording here!), to allow the General's rank crowns to be worn in addition to smaller crowns included in the Field Marshal rank devices. 

The photos above seem to clearly show Haig wearing both the small and larger Kings Crown devices at this rank. I believe the King also wears both type crowns although the photos of him are less easily made out. That is why I posit that these larger crowns are somehow reflective of ADC status. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Anyone have the WW1 era regs to quote?

[filfoster]

"Come on, sport....give us a go, yeah?  Give us a little WW1 rank insignia regulations, eh? You know...the big boys, the field marshals and what not."

Edited August 12, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Ok, let's start again. Disregard the cheeky tarted-up supplication.  Does anyone have access to the uniform regulations for rank insignia for the WW1 period that might shed some light on this 'double crown' mystery?  I'm just a superannuated deplorable Yank in our 'flyover' backwoods. I can't find these regs online or in my references. I would appreciate your assistance.  

[filfoster]

Bump. Someone, perhaps one of the UK contributors to this forum, must have these regulations at hand. Please share them?

[filfoster]

..Not giving up. Surely British Army uniform collectors/enthusiasts want to know the answer to this as well.

[Farkas]

Hello filfoster

 

there is an older thread discussing ADC boards including FM Haigs double crowns, with great details regarding dress regulations and more.

 

Spoiler alert, no one knows the answer!

😊

 

Below is the old post, full of facts...

 

 

One other point about FM Haig though, he was an ADC to King Edward VII between late 1902 and 1904.

Then made an ADC to King George in February 1914.

 

Is it possible the extra crown relates to Edward?  Who knows 🤷‍♂️

 

Cheers

tony

[filfoster]

Tony: Thank you! I think this answers it, it is likely and ADC insignia. I hope others will visit this thread and add to what we have concluded. I will peruse the older thread. Best, Phil