Chip Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Well, they might have changed the requirements later (I have seen no proof of that), but when this badge was instituted in 1916 it was specifically for MGSS formations.Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 I here you Chip but the photographic record doesn't support that. It would have been just as easy to provide the badge to all the soldiers in the unit as it was to supply them with anything else. And its not like they had a butt load of uniforms with them. I look at armies today and you can see the same thing. Look at the US Army for example. We started Ranger School for the Rangers, Air Assualt School for the 101st, Airborne for the Airborne etc... and each has thier specific qualification badge. Once those units were filled with qualified guys the schools were opened up to others because they are go to know skills. Why wouldn't the germans do the same? They had machineguns along the whole front and having specially trained subject matter experts in thier use would have made sense. What commander wouldn't want to have his guys trained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 (edited) dond,So, are you saying that any machine gunner that had some sort of training beyond the basic MG training would get this badge? OK, I can see that as a theory. I'm not saying that this idea is not possible, I am saying that I have never seen or heard of anything from the period that supports it thus far. What in the photographic record shows that soldiers other than those of MGSS units are wearing this badge? I have seen photos of training schools with the instructors wearing the badges and the students not. I have also seen pictures of MGSS units where all of the menbers are not wearing the badge. I don't think I have ever seen anything that specifically has men from a regimental MG company wearing the badge and explains why they are doing so. Perhaps Chris' photo could shed some light on the subject. I'm willing to learn something new, but I am from the "Show Me" state. Best regards,Chip Edited March 31, 2007 by Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 OK,my bad, not most of them have it, but 18 badges are to be seen, of course, some guys you don't see the left sleeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 OK, this is looking more like something is going on that I don't understand. So Chris, why do you think some of these men are wearing the badge? Obviously, this is not a MGSSA. So what are the requirements for wearing the badge? When did the original intent of the badge change or was this possible from the beginning? I think I know more than I did before by having seen this photo. It still leaves unanswered questions. Perhaps Glenn can pick something out of the A.K.O.s?Kraus says, "From January 1916 onwards, experienced soldiers were trained as machine gun marksmen to be deployed in army reserve units..." He goes on to say that in the autumn of 1916 these 200 marksmen units were formed into the MGSSA. So it sounds like these marksmen could have gotten the badge in the period between its introduction in February of 1916 and the establishment of the MGSSA in the Fall. This would mean that there were men in these small marksmen units, serving with the reserves before the establishment of the Abteilungs that could have been wearing this badge. Chris, is there a date on your photo?Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Hi,it is January 1918.Here is a thought...Some guys qualified through the REAL machine gun schools (D?beritz, Rozoy off the top of my head)The A.O.K. ran their own training courses for the Regts under their command.And the regts attached people to M.G.K. that carried water and munitions and what have you (ie. not all MGK personnel would have been trained M-gunners).In this photo there are MAYBE, qualified machine gunners (with the badge) and the rest of the company that carry the heavy ammunition, the hand grenades and bottles of beer ;-)The guys on the photo with the badge all seem to be pretty proud of it and do their best to have it seen on the photo.The "Elite" MGSSA were formed in late 1916 it I remember correctly (The Rozoy school"), but of experienced machine gunners, who would surely not have been transfered en masse into a Reserve regt MG Komp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Now that i think of it... I have 2 milit?rp?sser to guys who failed the MG school and still served on in MG units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 A funny thing is...I have the 1917 Prussian, 1918 Saxon and 1918 Bavarian Training manuals for MG08 companies. They have sections on medals, uniforms and distinctive badges (as well as tactics, weapons etc) included are badges for musicians, flag carriers, waffenmeister, pilots....In none does it mention the MG badge.Does anyone know the exact date they were introduced and where the regulations can be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 Here is the MGK from R.I.R. 221...I think it was taken in August 1916.... so no bages yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 how about trying to find the earliest dated postcard with guys wearing these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 Chris,The badge with Probe tag attached, but not shown, is in Kraus on page 321. The sample is dated Feb.8, 1916.Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted April 4, 2007 Author Share Posted April 4, 2007 Where would the regulations published, in General Orders, Army pubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 dond,Glen J. has access to the AKOs. Perhaps he might see this and take a look at the ones produced around this date.Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Hi just to give some new life to this old thread I wonder how many MGSS units where there?I got a copy of an old German document named "Maschinengewehr Scarftschutzen in Felde 1916-18"in its the story about MGSS Abt 54.I writes about MGSS nr 94,141 and 198 that formed MGSS Abt54 late 1916The MGSS 54 Abt lost 76 KIA 133 Wounded and 70 POW during 1916-18 out of 840 Officers and NCO/privatesAnd I thought to show some pics of the MGSS Badge in wear from my collection.Christer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 The first Photo is dated May 7th 1917And this one with his mother? and sister? is Taken in Bredstedt may just joined the MGSS?not dated sorry to sayChrister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Next Photo !Some soldiers having fun in front of the camera, they have nr 19 on the shoulder boards.At least two of them has the MGSS Badge.Not dated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 And now Fritz sends his regards!Fritz in Riga 20th June 1917 with his badge on the left arm.Christer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 One more !Dated 1918, probably in FranceIron Cross 2nd and 1st class and BadgeChrister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Soldiers and Dogs !Two dogs here and one soldier with badge, and what kind of uniform is the men on his left wearing?no date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christerd Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 And the last one !The man in the middle with a white/light coloured band in his hat have the badge. Gardes rgt? He seems to be the only one from that Rgt, maybe visiting friends.not datedChrister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 Here is one made by the firm of Falkenburg & Richter of Coblenz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 The reverse with marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesredep Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Here is one made by the firm of Falkenburg & Richter of Coblenz.Hello!Very nice and interesting Badge.It is the first time i never seen this Badge.i learned a lot here!Thanks.Best regardsNesredep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 A nice looking badge... I love them guns !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Here is a freshly minted version of the Juncker fake currently on ebay. They have given it a nice bronze finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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