Time to post Braunschweig!

[Claudius]

wow! Those are three outstanding Braunschweigs. That Star is a real prize, but I would also like to see that whole bar with the 2nd Klass w/S.

[Wild Card]

Thank you Claudius.

Here is the whole bar.

:cheers:

[Claudius]

Thank you Claudius.

Here is the whole bar.

Ahhh....I guessed right....it is an outstanding bar! This one has a real flavor to it.

In in 1897, old type long service, MEZ and Afrika service with two battle spange and lastly, the Braunschweig Cross w/swords. And I do mean lastly. What is doing there on the end? Must have been a proud Prussian/Empire man. I wish RR was online. I think he would have loved to see this one. Anything of interest on the back?

[Wild Card]

Hi Claudius,

Here is the reverse...

[Wild Card]

...and a close up of the label. Incidentally, following up on your suggestion, I contacted RR and he agreed that this arrangement, though not completely consistent with regulations, would not be improper (pardon the double negative) for one of the several 1909 merit cross awards with swords made to the Schutztruppen who served in Africa.

[Claudius]

Hi Claudius,

Here is the reverse...

Schön.

[Wild Card]

Danke :cheers:

[graham]

Too good a thread to let languish in the archives.

One from me, a BrK2:

[Solomon]

Here is a medalbar from Lippe-Detmold, showing the silver merit-cross Brunswig at its end.
The 2nd place is empty (ribbon of the military merit medal Lippe-Detmold), as it had been returned after receiving the war merit cross Lippe-Detmold.

Regards
Roman

[laurentius]

Dear Solomon,

lovely bar, as always. I do have one question, did the Military Merit Medal always have to be returned after receiving the war merit cross? Only yesterday I saw a lovely medalbar with both.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Solomon]

18 hours ago, laurentius said:

Dear Solomon,

lovely bar, as always. I do have one question, did the Military Merit Medal always have to be returned after receiving the war merit cross? Only yesterday I saw a lovely medalbar with both.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Hello Laurentius,

thank you 🙂

I asked a very good question, which already caused 100 years ago a quite significant confusion.

In fact, following the statutes, the military merit medal was awarded, when the deeds of the soldier were not sufficent enough to receive the war merit cross (and / or the Prussian Iron Cross).
But especially at the beginning of the war (1914-1916) almost nobody returned his military merit medal after receiving the cross and even the "Staatsministerium" was unsure about the returning procedure.
So the Prince was officially asked about it and in 1917 the "Militärkabinett" sent an official letter to the Staatsministerium
in order to clearify that the medal had to be returned after receiving the cross (I have a copy of this letter in my files).
If you go through the receipts of the military merit medal you will find various stamped receipts, stating that the medal was returned after awarding the cross.
To summarize...some did it and some not. That´s why you find medalbars with both awards as well.

There was only one exception: In 1915 the Prince ordered to award 55 wounded soldiers of the IR 55 with the military merit medal (without swords!), used more like a wound badge...these 55 medals had not to be returned!.

Below you will find an example of such a stamped receipt of the war merit cross.

I hope, I explained it in an understandable way...quite complicate topic.

Regards
Roman

[laurentius]

Dear Roman,

very interesting, and thank you for your excellent explanation. I do have one question, these men of IR 55, where they all wounded in the same battle or on the same day, or was this a retrospective ceremony for those who had been wounded since the beginning of the war? I do hope the loves of Braunschweig won't mind my questions

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

[Solomon]

To be honest I don´t know exactly.
I think I was reading somewhere, that these medals were given during a visit of the Prince to "his" soldiers, as the IR 55 was always considered as the Lippe-Regiment.
My guess would be a retrospective ceremony.

 

[Dave Danner]

Some additional details to what Roman stated:

The Kriegsverdienstkreuz (LK) was created on 8 December 1914, and the first awards were made a few days later. Before then, the Ehrenkreuz was the main award to officers and the Militärverdienstmedaille (LMVM) to NCOs and enlisted men. So for several months, the Ehrenkreuz/LMVM were the Iron Cross "equivalent" for Lippe-Detmold. 

As Roman notes, with exceptions, if an LMVM recipient later received the LK, he was supposed to return the LMVM, but this often did not happen. As for officers, it does not appear that those 1914 recipients of the Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern were required to return their order when they received the LK. Also, further awards of the Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern were made throughout the war (and retroactively after the war) as a higher award, separate from the Kriegsehrenkreuz für heldenmütige Tat, which had its own award criteria.

As noted above, the LK was first awarded in December 1914, and the first awards of the LK to officers in IR 55 were on 13 December 1914. But the first awards to NCOs and men of IR 55 did not happen until May 1915. At this time, just over 800 LK awards had been made, including over 500 to NCOs and enlisted men in other regiments. 

Roman, do you know if they simply continued to award the LMVM to IR 55 NCOs and enlisted men between December 1914 and May 1915, even while awarding the LK to NCOs and enlisted men in other units? And from 1915 on, do we know for certain if the LMVM was awarded only to those rendered dienstuntauglich and without the EK (based on the 1917 letter from the Mil.Kabinett to Natzmer) or was it also awarded like the Ehrenkreuz as a higher award to those already in possession of the LK?

Regarding the awards to wounded men, I do not know what the practice was in Lippe-Detmold, but I do know from my review of award recommendations in the archives in Dessau that early in the war, Anhalt mainly awarded the Friedrichkreuz to soldiers who had received the Iron Cross or who had been wounded in action (especially if the wound was serious enough to invalid them out of the army). Otherwise, if they did not have the Iron Cross, the award recommendation had to list a reason for the award (including whether he had been nominated for the Iron Cross). As the war went on, being wounded by itself was not sufficient grounds for an award, but it was a factor.

[Solomon]

Hi Dave,

difficult question, which only can be answered with the help of the award receipts (stored in the archive).
In general since 1915 the LMVM was lower ranked than the LK, which was usually awarded together with the IC2.
But even here exceptions exist, as I have documents in my collection stating the LMVM award and later the award of the IC2,
without having the LK.

By the way, formely the LMVM without swords on the medal was only awarded y high ranked officers and was turned in 1915 into a medal for the troops.
Officers got during the WW1 at least the LK and / or the house-order.

Regards
Roman

[ixhs]

Brunswick? What the hell is Brunswick 😄

Here one of mines.

Unfortunately, i am still looking for a name.

Any thoughts to ID this flagship?

I have the names of the 1910 medals. But too many possible guys...

Definitely a bavarian - may be a Landrat, Bürgermeister, or official - or some kind of civilian (Kommerzienrat, Fabrikdirektor... )

Edited October 23, 2019 by ixhs