1914 Star & Bar Group to 2nd Dragoons, Special Constabulary & Legion of Frontiersmen

[leigh kitchen]

This group arrived a couple of days ago, a basic foray into research has'nt got me very far.

The group itself - I thought I'd risk it, although I would have expected a copy of the WWI Medal Index Card to come with it nowadays so I suspected that there was something a little "strange" about it.

The medals are obvously swing mounted in a home sewn fashion, unevenly spaced, which makes you wonder if there was a medal or star missing between say, the WWI Victory Medal & the WWII Defence Medal with the post WWII medals have been shuffled along the bar to fill the gap.

I don't think so, as I assume (assumption being the mother of.........) that this WWI veteran would have received his WWII Defence & Victory Medals for his Special Constabulary Service rather than a campaign star for military service, although perhaps he could have had an between the wars campaign medal.

The ribbons themselves don't show any signs of being resewn or otherwise tamperd with, there is extremely minor pitting from the Star to the BWM, there's no contact wear to the other medals.

The 1914 Star is named to 6123 Pte W. McCABE 2/DNS

The BWM & VM are named to 2DN-6213 PTE.W.MC CABE.2-DNS.

Defence & War Medals are unnamed as issued

Special Constabulary Long Service Medal (King George V issue) is named to SEARGT. WILLIAM McCABE

Legion of Frontiersmen Long & Exemplary Service Medal (10 years) unnamed as issued.

I belive that the Legion of Frontiersmen medal was first issued in 1951 - here's a link to a web site re the organisation, which seems to excite controversy in some quarters.

At some point during WWI it looks like the 2nd Dragoons (The Royal Scots Greys) have added the 2DN prefix to their serial numbers, perhaps as a simple way to avoid confusion with the men of other regiments who had the same number, I was aware that the 1st Dragoons had added a similar prefix, but not the 2nd Dragoons.

The 2nd Dragoons arrived in France / Flanders 17/8/14, & spent the war in that theatre, I think that they suffered about 159 fatalities but can't remember offhand where I read that.

Edited March 20, 2008 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

I've aquired a copy of the WWI campaign star & medals from the National Archives on line,I'll have to suss out how to check the service records, pension records etc on Ancestry.co.uk, I don't know of a way of finding out which police forces special constabulary McCabe served in, I'll contact the historian of the League of Frontiersmen re the Long & Efficient Service Medal.

Here's the problem with the MIC, & some of what little detail there is I can't read.

It's possible that the hand written entry under "Remarks" is stating that a supervisor should be contacted when details of the Medal Roll entry come through, entries to that effect are known.

Following his service with the 2nd Dragoons (The Royal Scots Greys) McCabe has served with the Royal Army Veterinery Corps (which was designated "Royal" on 27/11/18, less than 3 weeks after the war ended) as a member of the Territorial Force

[leigh kitchen]

A closer view of the bit I can't read, & does anybody know what the handwritten entry bottom right on the MIC means please?

Something to do with McCabes discharge from the army as it includes what I take to be the date - "19" ?

[GraemeR]

It looks like he has 2 MIC's listed at TNA.

This being the 2nd one -

Medal card of McCabe, William

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Dragoons 2DN/6123 Private

Corps of Dragoons D/20897 Private

They aren't listed on Ancestry yet but once they are the images should be readable.

He does however have 2 sets of Pension Papers on Ancestry. It may make for an interesting story!!!

G

[leigh kitchen]

Ta, I had'nt had a thorough trawl through the MICs yet, I'll get on to that card now. I had a quick look at the pension papers a couple of days ago but did'nt have time to narrow them down - I kept getting a completely different name as top of one of the lists, possibly an alias. I'm unfamiliar with Ancestry.com.uk but I'll have another go now....

I'd wondered whether the 2DN prefix to the serial number could mean that he had transferred from the 2nd Dragoons to a reserve, the 2DN added to his number to indicate his orginal parent unit, but now there's a reference to serial number D/20897, "Corps of Dragoons"

[leigh kitchen]

The other MIC card, the "2DN" prefix havng been added later to the original 6123 digit only serial number, & verified as the form of serial number impressed on the BWM & VM, later the serial numbr D/20897, Corps of Dragoons is allocated.

Date of entry to France / Flanders 17/8/14, the date his unit is recorded as having arrived in theatre.

Verification of issue of Clasp & Roses, also issued Silver Wound Badge.

Ancestry.co.uk s a bit of a mystery to me, I need to work out what I require from it & the most economical way to get what I want, it may be that I'd be better off using a researcher than dipping in & out of the site checking the records for various men.

[GraemeR]

Let me have your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the Papers at the weekend.

There are only about 10 pages in the 2 sets.

G

[jagwca]

He must have had WW2 service in the military to have received the 1939/45 Wae medal.

John

[Tiger-pie]

He must have had WW2 service in the military to have received the 1939/45 Wae medal.

John

Civil services such as the police and firemen were entitled to the WW2 pair that he has as they were considered as part of the defence of Britain.

Regards,

Johnsy

Edited March 21, 2008 by Tiger-pie

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Leigh,

as far as I am aware, the Australian Association of Frontiersmen* Medal should be separate from any military awards, it would never be worn on a military uniform, and if worn by a Australian veteran it should be worn on the right hand side of the Blazer - Jacket, with his official Service awards on the left, they are not supposed to be mixed together.

* there is a lot of controversy with regards this organization, some F.M. members turning up at Official Australian Veterans functions, Remembrance Day Parades with mix and match uniforms, looking very para-military in style and wearing a mix of Frontiersmen Association Medals amongst Official Military Awards, also some are sporting self awarded ranks and it has been recorded self awarded service medals.

EDIT: As can be seen by Tiger Pie's post below, there are in fact two organizations, located in Australia who bear names that are very similar, and this seem to be the object of some confusion when talking about "Frontiersmen":

1. The Legion of Frontiersmen of the Commonwealth

2. Legion of Frontiersmen Australian Division.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Kev in Deva

[Tiger-pie]

Hallo Leigh,

as far as I am aware, the Australian Association of Frontiersmen* Medal should be separate from any military awards, it would never be worn on a military uniform, and if worn by a Australian veteran it should be worn on the right hand side of the Blazer - Jacket, with his official Service awards on the left, they are not supposed to be mixed together.

* there is a lot of controversy with regards this organization, some F.M. members turning up at Official Australian Veterans functions, Remembrance Day Parades with mix and match uniforms, looking very para-military in style and wearing a mix of Frontiersmen Association Medals amongst Official Military Awards, also some are sporting self awarded ranks and it has been recorded self awarded service medals.

Kevin in Deva.

You need to get your facts right Kevin before you railroad a legitimate organisation. There are two distinct organisations, they are:

1. The Legion of Frontiersmen of the Commonwealth

2. Legion of Frontiersmen Australian Division.

Link: http://www.frontiersmen.org.au/

The latter, the Australian Division has moved away from militarism and no longer uses military ranks, they concentrate on doing good work such as locating, recording and maintaining Australian war memorials and supporting Cadet units. They no longer wear military uniform, nor march as a formed group or use military rank.

Unfortunately the former uses the same symbology as the Australian Division, thus creating confusion. Most are wannbes who dress in uniform and wear self-awarded medals. They have damaged the reputation of the LoF and are a blight on society, most wearing actual military awards they were never entitled to.

With regards to the medal group, once you are a civvie, you can wear what you like. It is very unlikely that this gent would have tried to get away with wearing the Long Service and Efficiency medal on a parade ground. The ribbon is used, as far as I'm aware, by all Commonwealth Divisions, who's medals were all based on the original Legion of Frontiermen medals of the UK.

Regards,

Johnsy

[Kev in Deva]

You need to get your facts right Kevin before you railroad a legitimate organisation. There are two distinct organisations, they are:

1. The Legion of Frontiersmen of the Commonwealth

2. Legion of Frontiersmen Australian Division.

Link: http://www.frontiersmen.org.au/

The latter, the Australian Division has moved away from militarism and no longer uses military ranks, they concentrate on doing good work such as locating, recording and maintaining Australian war memorials and supporting Cadet units. They no longer wear military uniform, nor march as a formed group or use military rank.

Unfortunately the former uses the same symbology as the Australian Division, thus creating confusion. Most are wannbes who dress in uniform and wear self-awarded medals. They have damaged the reputation of the LoF and are a blight on society, most wearing actual military awards they were never entitled to.

With regards to the medal group, once you are a civvie, you can wear what you like. It is very unlikely that this gent would have tried to get away with wearing the Long Service and Efficiency medal on a parade ground. The ribbon is used, as far as I'm aware, by all Commonwealth Divisions, who's medals were all based on the original Legion of Frontiermen medals of the UK.

Regards,

Johnsy

Dear Johnsy,

I did say

"as far as I am aware"

, with reference to the subject of Regulation regarding the wear of Medals and Decorations.

Is it not true that Official Military Service awards, are to be borne on the left breast and unofficial awards to be borne on the right breast of the blazer?? I believe Regimental as well as Veteran Associations use this as a rule?

I will amend my original post to the fact that there are two organizations using similar names and one has been the cause of some dispute in the way in which they portray themselves to the General Public by their dress and awards.

As you are closer to the subject there, in Australia perhaps you would consider devoting a thread to the organizations in question, so we who live far from your shores can get a handle on them. Particularly the type of awards that they sport.

Kevin in Deva

[leigh kitchen]

I was going to start a thread on the Legion of Frontiersmen, but my only contribution would be to post links various sites, including one that feature Australian & NZ "military imposters", & a couple of pre WWI items - an illuminated scroll listing some names of members & a manual, similar to the British military manuals of the time.

The manual's very interesting - if you need to navigate by stars, make gunpowder, treat youself for syphilis, make a pair of snow shoes, cure meat or swot up on cowboy etiquette, the Legion were your boys.

Somebody want to start off the thread while I look for the scroll & manual?

Thread started on the Legion of Frontiersmen:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2651...mp;#entry250753

Edited March 22, 2008 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Let me have your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the Papers at the weekend.

There are only about 10 pages in the 2 sets.

G

Thanks, PM en route.....

Searching on McCabe threw up a Patrick Duffy a couple of times - an alias, or me messing up?

[GraemeR]

No - different alias - McGinty if I recall correctly

[jagwca]

Tiger-Pie that is not so civilians,Police,civil defence received only the Defence Medal.For the 1939/45 War Medal you had to have served 28 days on mobilized service even Observor Corp who served on D'Day did not get this one.

John

[GraemeR]

Perhaps he was Home Guard.

G

[leigh kitchen]

I had'nt realised that Special Constabulary did'nt qualify for the War Medal, but then Home Guard did did'nt they & they were'nt full time members of the armed forces or full time uniformed civilians working in an army operational area, which appears to be a requirement for qualification?

Scans of McCabes pension records received, many thanks Graham, & as you thought, they make for a fairly interesting story.

[leigh kitchen]

McCabes pension records:

Attested on 17/9/02 for the Cameron Highlanders, in which he became serial number 6387, & stating that he was currently serial no. 3013 of the Royal Highlanders

Borm at Dundee, a mill worker by trade, aged 14 years & 4 months at attestation.

He's enlisted under the name William McGinty.

Edited March 23, 2008 by leigh kitchen

[jagwca]

Leigh,the Home Guard received only the Defence Medal again the 1939/45 War Medal was for fulltime service in the armed forces.

John

[leigh kitchen]

I've got the HMSO 1946 publication on the grant of honours decorations & awards, giving the conditions of qualification for the WWII Stars & mdals - I'd better sit & read it.

[leigh kitchen]

All of 4 10" tall, fresh complexion, grey eyes, dark brown hair.

I can't make out the distinctive marks, other than that he's got a tattoo? on the front of his right forearm & a "web" thumb or thumbs

Edited March 23, 2008 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Served at "Home" 19/9/02 - 21/9/04 - atotal of 2 years & 4 days service.

Mother is listed as Mary Ann McGinty, 2 Blumshall (?) Street, Dundee.

3rd Class Certificate of Education attained, the date is possibly 4/4/03.

Edited March 23, 2008 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Service as a Boy, a Drummer & a Private.

Discharged 21/9/04.

Edited March 23, 2008 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Joins up again on 6/9/05, under the name William McCabe, aged 18 years & 1 month - which he isn't, according to his previous set of papers, he's 16 - 17.

Born in Dundee, a mill worker by trade, I thnk that he statng that he has been rejected as unfit for military service in the past because of varicose veins (item 13).

Interestingly, he states that he has not served in the army before (item 11).

On this occassion, he's signing up for the "Dragoons of the Line" in which he becomes number 3123, later DNS/20897

Edited March 23, 2008 by leigh kitchen