Gordon Williamson

Nice unmarked Deumer. The horizontal pin Deumer badges in Tombak are very nice indeed !

Its all about having good friends here who think of you when selling such things ! :cheers:

Visor Cap 66mm

2nd Type Matrosenmütze 51mm

1st Type Matrosenmütze 38mm

You should also note that the standard size of the Cockade worn below the eagle was 22-25mm, so on the normal later one piece Eagle/cockade for the Matrosenmtüze, the eagle (at around 50mm) is around 2 x the size of the cockade. You can see this size comparison clearly on any good clear photo. However if you look at any original period photos of the first type eagle worn on the Matrosenmütze it is very clear that the eagle is not twice the size of the cockade, but smaller, around 1.5 x the size of the cockade.(i.e. 38mm). Your 50mm eagle is not for the Matrosenmütze but for the Visor cap.

Yes, the same very early pattern eagle, but in silver, was worn on Army caps.

I've seen other refinished pieces ( like KM badges) where the "new" Gilding has a frosted appearance so I presume a competent jeweller would be able to recreate this effect. I don't think this in itself would be a determining factor for originality.

Even the normal silver RK without Swords by Zimmermann is excessively rare so I suspect anyone wanting to gild a genuine silver RK to pass it off as a Gold grade would use the much more common Deschler type.

Yes, I'm sure that yours is for the Visor Cap. On any photos you find of the early Matrosenmütze you can see that this first type eagle is very small.

What size is the eagle. The first type Matrosenmütze eagle is 38mm wing span. Here is one alongside a normal cap eagle for the visor cap. If the wing span is bigger than 38mm, I would say it is for the early KM visor cap.

Hi Peter,

No, they were made from different dies. If they made them from the same dies as the "with" Swords, then they would have ribbed arms for the suspension eye instead of smooth.

Gordon!

Reg. Zimmermann-crosses

What do you think about the cross without swords. Were they made from the ones with swords or from specific w/o swords-dies? With that small amount awarded...easier, cheaper just to remove the swordspart!?

/peter

How many of these gold versions were awarded? Are they solid gold or plated?

Paul,

It is not known for sure that anyone actually received the physical award itself but two definite recipients "on paper" are known just before the war ended. The award was in effect a gold plated verion of the silver Cross.

No awards of the Gold version with Swords have yet been established but the award itself did exist. Examples of both with and without Swords Knight's Crosses were liberated from Schloss Klessheim.

Reverse

The link will only be of use to GMIC members who are also members on WAF, otherwise like me, they won't see the images.

However, Craig has sent me set of images of the piece in question which is marked 900 20 for Zimmermann. I will add the shots here here in comparison shots alongside an original RK of the KVk by Zimmermann in Silver.

No question in my mind that the Gold example is also a genuine and very rare Zimmermann made piece. There are several die characteristics of Zimmermann RK you can see that match on both pieces ( e.g. the manner in which the "horizontal" top arm of the numeral "3" actually seems to slope very slightly upwards to the left.

I'm afraid this one doesn't look good. The very rough edges especially visible on the reverse and the wrong style of retaining clip suggest a cast reproduction.

I think many German veterans bought replacements for their lost badges not realising the replacements were copies.

Just for comparison, here is a genuine Schott marked piece.

If the material is softer pliable plastic it is a bad sign. It should be celluloid, not plastic, and after more than 60 years will usually be brittle and would snap if bent to sharply. It is quite common to find inside original caps that the celluloid band stiffener is cracked.

Thanks Erich. Given the extra couple of week or so for books to cross the Atlantic, plus the fact that the heavy snow and ice have meant that the UK has virtually closed down (well over a week since I last saw a postman)readers in the States will see the book well before I get my hands on a copy !

I'm confident that Roger will have done his usual great job on design and layout though and can't wait to see the final product.

Hi Gordon,

I know they'd be worn by a Feldwebel (senior NCO) but would they ever be worn by a Maat or Obermaat (junior NCO)?

Best regards,

---Norm

Norm,

Could be worn by any rank on the Bordjacke, but certainly only SNCOs on the white summer jacket.

Very nice original, but not just for officers. These were worn by NCOs also.

Cap and Jacket both look good !

Yes, there were certainly KM caps which did have a less floppy appearance, usually because the cap-spring was still inside the top. I believe there was in fact a specific size that KM tops were supposed to be(I do somewhere have a note of the regulation dimensions)and that this was larger than the typical BM top.

Of course once you get into "private purchase" the size and materials used in regulaion caps may well not have been followed. This is why I have chosen never to own anything other than regulation issue caps where determining originality is quite simple and you will never end up with a cap that will always be the subject of debate and uncertainty. Like blue-lined Bordmützen, private purchase Matrosenmützen are things I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

The cap in question here may be a period piece, but its not one I would ever want to own, but thats just a matter of personal preference. It would be interesting to hear Michel's take on this one. His is the opinion that would swing it for me on KM headgear.

Private purchase sailors caps are like SS M-43 caps, for every one who likes it there will be someone else who will swear its bad.

And another example posted by Michel on another thread here on GMIC.

These two have the shape and size of top I would look for in a genuine Kriegsmarine period cap.

There was no colour difference between BM and KM. There may be colour differences between individual caps, but this is nothing to do with whether they are KM or BM.

Actually from an external view, your Kriegsmarine cap does look like a Bundesmarine example. Kriegsmarine caps would normally have a wider, softer top. The smaller tops are usually typical of the Bundesmarine era.

Kriegsmarine caps usually have a larger, floppy top like this one.

Very nice indeed, even without the photo.

Hi Mervyn

Thanks for the kind offer but I'm more into badges/insignia with my British & Commonwealth stuff and really only Military Police ( I know that in some cases the para-military aspect of some forces blurs the divide between civil and military police!) .

Don't really have the space to display uniforms. The two uniforms I own and handful of caps are all stored away in a closet as I've nowhere to display them, militaria having to compete for space with my Vivariums in a smallish room !

interesting collar but would not be for me without a crown it just did not happen

PAUL

Looking at the tiny area of contact between the wreath and the Crown, and how weak this would be, I would guess that it probably did have one and it has become detached.