Gordon Williamson

Hi Paul,

Awesome set ! I just bought the GVR version in your photo at top right and already have the Collar Dog. I still need the one with the CMP cypher in the centre but have found what appears to be a Collar Dog for this type.

The shoulder title for ! Det is a new one on me. Didn't know about that one so I'll have to add it to my list of things to find.

Looking for some advice here on identifying pieces I am still missing.

Posted this on the British and Commonwealth Forum but I know there are several SA specialists here.

I think I have all the basic badges worn by the SACMP/SAMPK. I know however that there are seveal different Chrome versions of the modern badge with enamel unit badges. I just have one example at the moment but have seen others from time to time (Gauteng, East Province, Transvaal etc )but don't know how many there are all together. Can anyone advise which others there are.

For Rhodesia I still need the SRCMP Badge and Title.

For India there is an "IMP" shoulder title but I have no idea exactly how many different India/Pakistan Cap or Shoulder badges there are in total.

If anyone can point out any badges/shoulder titles I am missing for Africa/India I'd be grateful.

Africa / India

Think I have all the badges worn by the SACMP but I'm aware there are several variants of the now defunct Chrome Badge with unit emblems in the middle. Not sure how many exist.

For Rhodesia I need the SRCMP Cap Badge and Shoulder Title

For India there is a "IMP" title missing, but not sure how many other Badges exist.

I'd be grateful if anyone can identify any others I am still missing and need to look for.

Both the Canada Maple Leaf and the British Pattern Badge were used by Canadian CEF MPs I believe. I have the 1 Det. Badge but there are two others from the period , for one I have the Collar Dog shown here and have the full size Badge on hold with a Canadian dealer. The remaining WW1 type I have the Collar Dog coming but still need the full size Badge.

Otherwise I know I need the "CMPC" and Garrison Military Police "GMP" shoulder titles but think just about everything else is here.

For New Zealand I need

1.EIIR badge in Brass

2.Current Chrome/Blue badge.

For Australia I don't think there are any other Badges, but still need

1. Cloth embroidered title "Royal Australian Army Provost Corps"

2. Cloth embroidered title "Royal Australian Corps of Military Police" with black border

3. 1960s "Provost" anodised shoulder title

4. WW1 Australian Provost Corps" Brass Shoulder Title

5. WW1 "Anzac Provost Corps" Brass Shoulder Title

MPSC. Seems to be very little info around on this organisation. Not sure if the GVR collars really are MPSC.

Know I need EVIIR Cap Badge and the MPSC Brass Shoulder Title but not sure what else is possible to get for this mob.

Just about to remount all the MP badges. Posting here to see if anyone can confirm any other missing pieces I still need to get.

First British. Still need the silver plated GVIR Officer Cap Badge - have the Collar Dog on hand. Also still need the WW2 Period shoulder title black embroidered on brown slip on.

I'd agree with Norm on the attribution of this one to the unknown manufacturer of the range of badges known as "flat-backs". It would appear that, whoever they were, they made virtually the whole range of KM War Badges. I'd also agree with Eric in that these appear to be genuine period pieces, though I suspect that there will always be some who hold these in some suspicion. For now, unless any evidence turns up to show them to be bad, I tend to believe in them.

A fascinating grouping and story. Thanks for posting, Gordon.

I wonder what happened to his U-boat badge -- possibly at the bottom of the sea?

Best regards,

---Norm

Quite possibly Norm, if indeed he ever had one. We know he was on Scharnhorst and ended up on U-66. What we don't know is when he actually made his first war cruise on a U-Boat. If the cruise in which U-66 was sunk was his first, then he wouldn't yet have qualified for the U-Boat badge when he was captured.

And Buckley's commander, Lieutenant-Commander Able receiving the Navy Cross for sinking U-66.

And this is USS Buckley, the Destroyer Escort that sank U-66

Our man Grölz after being rescued is shown as a POW at far right in the front row here.

You can read the original action report on the sinking of U-66 here

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-66BuckleyReport.htm

As the CANADIAN troops where in England for some time during that period many badges where in fact made there by BRITISH firms so ref your thoughts any type can be CANADIAN .see the variations from my collection

PAUL

The CMPC is very nice ! Haven't managed to pick one of those up yet.

Hi Paul,

Yes, there are reputedly two types, one with "fatter" letters being the British type and one with thinner letters being the Canadian version. I have both types but am not really convinced they are anything other than just manufacturer variants.

Having said that, all of the examples with the "fat" letters I have were picked up here in the UK and the one with the thin letters is one I got from Canada.

The problem with private purchase sailor caps is that you will probably find it almost impossible to get a unanimous vote of confidence from other collectors. Personally I would only ever consider buying a regulation issue piece as it is far easier to determine their originality. Private purchase pieces will always have questions hanging over them as so many of the firms that made them were still in existence when the Bundesmarine was formed and also manufactured very early Bundesmarine caps.

Hi John,

Yes, the earlier period of his set was for me particularly attractive. Being awarded his badge in March 1942 means that he was almost certainly on board during the famous Operation Cerberus (the "Channel Dash") in February 1942 and quite probably the highly successful Operation Berlin. That, and coming with a very nice Tombak badge made it irresistable for me.

Tim,

Thanks for the additional pics. Reinforces my opinion, - a genuine, but (very) worn original.

I'm afraid the link will be of very limited to those of us who aren't, or chose not to be, members of WAF as they won't see any images.

The dimensions, weight etc seem to be within the ball park for known originals which reinforces my thoughts that it is most likely a very worn original.

For what its worth I have seen so called "ground dug" original Kriegsmarine tombak badges whose finishes were corroded even worse than this badge.

Well... I must admit I was wanting and wanting to post I thought it looked good... but I was not sure and good thing I held my tongue.

I now see the problems pointed out and am happy I collect paper... :-)

Actually, nothwithstanding the fact that it is in pretty rough condition, I think it probably IS a good piece. I've seen several good original WW1 U-Boat badges, including Schott marked pieces, with a lot of pock marking to the surface. Brass type alloys may not rust but they are not immune to corrosion.

This one isn't a patch on Michel's badge and it's not one I'd invest a lot of money in but I'm far from convinced that its bad.

Don,

For comparison, you can see a really nice original Meybauer U-Boat Badge belonging to Michel in this thread

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=19306&st=0&p=185968&hl=meybauer&fromsearch=1&#entry185968

And the interesting part. Note the pencil note at the top of the Fleet Badge document - the document was sent to him through the U-Boat Personnel Office. A quick check of U-Boat crew lists shows that after he service on Scharnhorst he transferred to U-Boats, serving on U-66, a Type IX which was eventually sunk by the destroyer escort USS Buckley in May 1944 after what is thought to have been the longest lasting battle between a U-Boat and an Escort in the course of WW2.

And EK2 doc with Günther Lütjens signature.

Awards doc for Fleet Badge, signed by Kurt Caesar Hoffmann, commander of the Scharnhorst

Just acquired a lovely Scharnhorst grouping with very nice early Tombak Schwerin Fleet Badge and a nice EK2 to accompany it.

And the potential owners