Gordon Williamson

Don actually published a book "Anatomy of Deception" in 1996, with the full story of these fake Prussian Police Discs. They come from Poland.

You are correct of course.

My interest is in the use of that colour of piping by the Luftwaffe Feldgendarmerie prior to them switching to orange. I had never seen an example of either the pale blue or orange on an NCO cap.

Does any one know of, or have photos of, a Luft NCO visor cap with light blue (transport) piping ?

Looks like one of the fakes featured on Don's site. Originals are extremely rare.

http://home.comcast.net/~donbible/

Erik, I'm really jealous ------but glad its in a good home.

For me the only other that comes close to this- what I'd say was the first type Juncker, is the phenomenal screwback version of the Juncker badge that Michel has.

This has been confused making TWO threads instead of one.

Photos:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=38186

show the name as the more normal "Kleist" and NOT "Kliest" so not that person at all.

My typo in my earlier reply, the Obermaschinist on U-71 was Walter Kleist, so still a candidate for the original owner of the dagger.

Hi Tim,

Yes, as you'd expect, an early style round wire clip. Pin is the Juncker style tapering pin similar to that found on some Juncker EK1 Spange.

Sounds like its a simple typo. I've seen countless different versions used, Cello, Celleon, Cellon, Cellulon etc etc but if the term Cellon is used in a period publication then it is most likely the correct spelling. Celleon seems widely used in Germany too. Quite possibly, like the situation with the identification of the W trademark as Wernstein instead of the correct Wiedmann, it is a case of an old misinterpretation being picked up and used without question.

To me the important thing is that the meaning of the term being used is clear ( and my understanding is with the thicker "wrapped" thread made to replace metallic threads ) in which case its a simple use of wrong spelling but the meaning is correct.

I'd be more concerned with the common misuse I see of the term Celleon to describe the yellow rayon thread "artificial silk" woven material too, which is clearly incorrect.

Personally, I find the Juncker Eagle the 'strongest' and most visually pleasing.

Absolutely ! The Schickle type is also rather nice, probably my second favourite, and the possible Deumer has a rather well executed head to the eagle too.

No matter how well struck or finished some of the others are, there is something too "Muppet-like" about the eagles for them to be truly attractive .

Juncker - now thats an eagle. !

Type 10

Design only found on the French made badge.

Type 9,

Only used by Karneth, but quite similar to GWL

Type 8

Only used by Funcke & Bruninghaus and Boerger & Co (Beco)

Type 7

So far only GWl known to use this design.

Type 6

So far only two firms positively identified, but this one also exists in an unmarked Tombak version so may either be one of the two identified firms, or a third so far unknown.

Left, Wächtler & Lange of Mittweida

Right, Klein & Quenzer of Idar-Oberstein

The most common of all, Type 5 with the so called "shield shaped" chest to the eagle.

Used by at least the following ( and probably more as unmarked specimens are also knownm which have reverse fittings which do not conform to the six firms identified here)

Left to right top row

Foerster & Barth, Pforzheim

Meybauer, Berlin

Mayer, Pforzheim

Left to right bottom row

Friedrich Orth, Wien

Rudolf Souval, Wien

E. Ferd. Wiedmann, Frankfurt

Type 4, the Schickle design.

Used by (left to right below)

Schickle of Pforzheim

Mayer of Pforzheim

Zimmermann of Pforzheim

Believed original tooling was Schickle's and sold off when the firm went out of business in 1941, thereafter the tooling appears to have been shared by Mayer and Zimmermann.

Type 3. The Hymenn style.

Used by Hymenn and at least one other (Deumer)

Hymenn is at left, at right is a possible Deumer (the Deumer catalogue shows a badge with the area around the eagles head cut away rather than solid, so whilst this may well be a Deumer, it cannot be confirmed 100%)

Type 2. Juncker, used only by Juncker

Thought it would be interesting to look at the shared design characteristics on U-Boat badges from different manufacturers and how many of them appear to have come from similar tooling.

First up, Type 1, the Schwerin type design.

This design was used by (left to right)

Schwerin of Berlin

Steinhauer & Lück of Lüdenscheid

Deumer of Lüdenscheid

Does a copy of the Paul Meybauer catalog exist?

Never seen one but I wouldn't be surprised if they existed given how long Meybauer were around. I'd be fairly confident that they probably produced some sort of catalogue during the 20s/30s if not during the TR period.

Yep, this one is much nearer to Stewy's. Given the other Zinc piece ( which is from Thomas Huss) is identical to the earlier Tombak example, we'd have to assume its the earlier of the Zinc types and the type owned by Stewy is most likely a later war example from F&B using different tooling.

Superb set. Aways nice to have additional personal documents with these things.

Whilst I would be hesitant to buy anything from such poor images, I do think it has a chance. These new photos certainly show a more believable toned yellow gold colour rather than the brighter yellow that the modern fakes have used. On many of the copies the weave pattern on the reverse is totally wrong,. but on some it is quite accurate though the materials themselves are often wrong (modern synthetics ).

I think this one would probably need an "in hand" inspection to be comfortable with it.

Attached a scan of the reverse of mine. This came from Detlev Niemann with a large grouping of around 60 documents ( Soldbuch, Award Documents, etc etc) to a Hipper crewman.

I can also see several differences in the outline profile shape, just a few indicated here, but there are several.

Bearing in mind the AS ball hinge type Minesweeper and the unmarked one in the same style but which shows several minor differences in die characteristic, and some think is from a different maker, I think we can certainly call this one a Foerster & Barth style but can't be 100% sure.

My own thought is that it may well be from F&B but from a different set of tooling. For a badge like the Minesweeper which was made in very large numbers its quite possible that some firms had more than one set of tooling.

The early Tombak and late Zink pieces above are identical and clearly come from the same set of tooling. This one is almost identical but I'd say not from the same tool.

Pin shape is very slightly different with the widest part of the hinge higher up.