Gordon Williamson

Ah yes, I know what you mean now. I am familiar with it but the terminology of "flaw" threw me as I have always just thought of this as a die characteristic rather than a flaw. What this is supposed to represent I don't know, but I rather think this is a deliberate feature.

Most die "flaws" are caused by damage to the surface of a die caused by a crack, chip etc and leave a raised feature on the item. Can't think what sort of flaw on a die would leave a perfectly round raised point to impart an impressed point on the item. (at least not one that would be very obvious on the die and could be polished out in a few minutes)

Plus - it is present on a 57er I had of this badge. Sorry its not a great pic but you can just see the small round indentation.

A die feature that could be useful in determining genuine FLLs, sure, but surely not a flaw.

Can't say I've noticed any. Fairly common badge so I haven't thought of examining for minute die flaws to spot possible fakes. Have you noticed something then John ?

Here is where I need some help, the reverse side of the Eichorn blade is etched (rather than engraved):- " W. KLIEST // O.b. Masch" Is this the craftsman who made the dagger, or the etcher or more likely the officer who owned the dagger(s) If the original owner can we trace him.

Gordon

Hi Gordon

Almost certainly the name of the original owner, but not an officer I'm afraid, Ob Masch is the abbreviated form of the rank Obermaschinist. This is the equivalent of a Warrant Officer. They were entitled to wear the dagger, but without the knot worn by officers.

However, you may well be on to a winner here as there is a W.Kliest with the rank of Obermaschinist who served on U-71. The boat survived the war to be scuttled in 1945 so Kliest may well also have survived. Needless to say, a dagger attributable to a -Boat crewman is very desirable.

Gordon

If it is indeed Zinc, then it is most likely Mayer. Schickle went out of business before the move from Tombak to Zink so you won't find a Zinc piece by Schickle. Zimmermann usually cut out all arms of the swastika so you can probably rule out Zimmermann.

Mayer with a variant pin system is the most likely answer.

We know that Schickle were manufacturing this design very early on, and that their tooling was subsequently sold off when the firm went out of business in 1941. Thereafter I assume there was some sort of sharing arrangement between Mayer and Zimmermann, so we really have to concentrate on these two firms.

A badge of this type in Zinc with a more conventional pin system is known but I've not seen one with a maker mark. So it is difficult to say for sure wither Mayer or Zimmermann made them. Bear in mind that these badges were struck ( not cast like a GWL) so the fully cut out swastika used to identify Zimmermann pices in Tombak would be a very weak point liable to fracture on a Zinc badge so Zimmermann may well have ceased to use this feature when moving to Zinc. Also, we do not know at which stage Zimmermann moved from using this earlier design, to the later, less attractive design they used in Zinc. They may have used this early design for a transitional period for Zinkers.

So, really, any theories you might want to use to determine wther Mayer or Zimmermann is the most likely maker are based more on speculation than anything else as we just don't have firm information at this point.

Personally I'd say Mayer is the most likely, but Zimmermann is still possible.

Excellent original example, and almost impossible to upgrade.

Looks like a nice example. Not often you see these with any of the gilding still intact.

I have a spare set of all three volumes if anyone desperately needs a set. Would have to sell as a full set though, don't want the hassle of splitting and selling individually,

Very nice, and not so easy to find !

Tim,

You made a good choice, this type badge is in my opinion by far the most attractive of all the various U-Boat Badge makers.

Yes, this type is generally accepted as being made by Juncker. They are never maker marked. Juncker rarely marked their naval badges (for some reason their Coastal Artillery badge being an exception). It is certainly a good WW2 piece. They sometimes turn up in real mint condition, the level of wear and toning suggest that it could well have actually been issued ( as opposed to having been "liberated" from some storeroom by allied troops at the end of the war.

Interesting to hear about your dive. Which boat did you dive on?

Wouldn't recommend 1, 2, 3 or 5. Genuine, but late war types not particularly desirable and very highly priced for what they are.

Number 4 is a Schwerin / Steinhauer type, nice but quite expensive.

Without any doubt the best one is number 6, a lovely Juncker piece in fine condition and priced more cheaply than Number 4 which is a pig ugly badge anyway.

And on others there appear to be no markings at all.

Rick,

I know exactly what you mean, and such "sanitizing" is common in the world of model aircraft, but NOT in this case. As you can see from this rare U-Boot Archiv photo, the Balkenkreuz and not the Swastika was used on the tail fin.

U-178 First Cruise (under Ibbeken) lasted from 8 September 1942 (departed Kiel) until 9 January 1943 (arrived Bordeaux) so the photos were likely taken in Bordeaux in January 1943. It was Ibbeken's only war patrol, though very successful, his previous command being pre-war.

So, there were no alternative boats / commands - it has to be the return of U-178 to Bordeaux in January 1943.

Where did von Trotha go after St Nazaire ?

Perfectly good original piece. Nice condition too. Most of these you see have gone really dark grey.

Very interesting to see something something with such a "decorative" motif used by the military. Certainly anything used by the British military was very plain ( and usually very coarse!)

The chap with the Goatee beard in Photo 2 is Fregattenkapit?n Hans Ibbeken, commander of U-178. The Oakleaves winner is his Flotilla Commander, Fregattenkapit?n Klaus Scholtz.

Here is another shot, which gives a better view of Scholtz.

Reverse.

The badges are a deeper blue than the images suggest. I had to lighten the images so the detail could be seen. :love:

Obverse

Another new arrival. Just about the nicest one of these I've had. Early tombak piece with early velvet base to the case lining.

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Model aircraft are not usually my thing but I couldn't resist having a go at this one because of its submarine connections.

Its the Focke Achgelis "Bachstelze" which was carried on some of the so-called Type IX "Monsun Boats".

Model is by a Czech firm in mixed media, moulded plastic, polyurethane resin, etched brass and some scratch builing for the wiring/cables etc. Scale is 1/48 so it is pretty tiny, just 8cm long

Letter from War Crimes Investigators (possibly investigating Ordaour ?) who had been looking for someone who happened to have the same name serving in Das Reich.

His discharge from captivity as a former member of the Gestapo