Gordon Williamson

Soldbuch Cover

Was very fortunate to pick up this super-rare set

Firstly, the award document to the guy's KVK2

Feldgendarmerietrupp der Luftwaffe 1111 was the MP unit for 11 Luftwaffe Feld Division

How about with East German insignia Gordon?

There were some similarities, but generally speaking if you have a KM type sleeve patch on blue wool backing then it is almost certainly NOT BM or Volksmarine

The examples on your photo all look to be original pieces.

No problem in confusing Kriegsmarine with Bundesmarine as the Bundesmarine did not use this style of combined rank/trade insignia so this type will be either genuine KM or fake KM.

There are lots of good original examples available on EBay for very low prices simply because they were made in huge numbers and, lacking any specific Nazi imagery (such as eagles, swastikas etc) they are of no interest to a great proportion of the collecting community and thus fetch pretty low prices.

Doesn't mean that no fakes have been made, they may well have been, but the financial return for making fakes of these badges which even in todays world of grossly inflated militaria prices, still only fetch a handful of Euros, means it really isn't worth it for the fakers.

You seem to have some nice original pieces for comparison. If any you are considering purchasing match the quality and consytruction of these, you should be pretty safe to buy.

If you go to some of the sites where they sell re-enactor insignia, you will find just about any Luftwaffe/Arrmy/Waffen-SS insignia you can imagine including all the cloth sleeve patches. I would have though that if someone was churning out fakes of the KM insignia too, that these would all be widely available, yet that isn't the case.

Like I said, it is possible that fakes exist, but KM cloth sleeve patches is still one of the safest collecting areas around. You can easily build up a huge collection of original stuff for a very low outlay.

Thanks for the posts, Gentlemen!

Martin - John Robinson informed me that the KM stopped wearing ship/flotilla-specific tallies shortly after the war started in 1939 for security purposes. For that reason, I wouldn't think that you would see a war badge and a ship/flotilla-specific tally in wear together. However, I could be wrong about this (wouldn't be the first time).

Best Regards,

Erik

As a general rule, its basically true. However there were occasions after the outbreak of war when cap ribbons were worn. For instance, when Prien's crew were invited to Berlin to celebrate the sinking of Royal Oak, they wore their flotilla ribbons, but on all the press photos the censor obliterated the name.

After the outbreak of war, it would be rare to see a sailor on duty wearing a named ribbon BUT I have no doubt that sailors would retain at least one named ribbon for sentimental reasons (even though they were suposed to be handed in after the outbreak of war). Remember that these ribbons were not exactly hard to obtain before the war and were often even given away to visitors to the ships during "open days " etc plus ribbons could be purchased by the sailor and as his personal property wouldn't be handed in when the general exchange of named ribbons for "Kriegsmarine" ribbons occured.

These ribbons could then be worn briefly, to have a portrait photo taken for the family album even after their wear was prohibited. The wearing of items or insignia which were not exactly "permitted by regulations" was quite common when posing for private rather than official photos.

So its quite possible that a photo might turn up of a sailor wearing a warbadge and the appropriate cap ribbon.

Nice tally and super photo Erik !

Very nice, and as you say, not an easy maker to find with so much finish still intact !

Fabulous MKP cuffband. ! Worst thing I ever did, letting mine go, I'd kill to get it back.

And Bulgaria

Not really sure about the older history of Gorget use by Germany but I know the military police used them in World War One, so it wasn't something introduced during the 3rd Reich.

Incidentally, other nations MPs used them too. Principally Hungary, shown here

The history of the Iron Cross predates the horrors of WW2 and IMHO it should be reinstated.

Quite apart from matters of political correctness, the Iron Cross can only be awarded when the nation is in a declared state of war. It is what is known as a temporary award, and has to be re-instituted each time the nation is at war.

As, thankfully, Germany is unlikely ever to declare war on anyone again, the Iron Cross will most likely never re-appear and that is how it should be. Any attempt to reintroduce it now would be a travesty which would go against nearly two hundred years of tradition.

Not that the (absolutely correct) policy of not re-introducing the Iron Cross can justify awarding such a tawdry piece of junk as this new award. The basic design isn't too bad but the quality of manufacture and the dreadful read paint -yeuch :banger:

And here is the MKP gorget as worn in the first photo, shown alongside a regular Feldgendarmerie piece for size comparison

Another security branch which it is very difficult to find photos for. These guys are Bahnhofswache who provided security at railways stations, looking for deserters, those without correct travel papers etc.

A very rare shot of Luftwaffe field police

Here are a couple of examples of the Feldgendarmerie cuffband showing variant weave patterns

Entry showing his service with Gruppe Geheime Feldpolizei 2 in occupied France.

Rare Wehrpass to a member of the Geheime Feldpolizei. I have quite a bit of supporting documentation, latters etc with this one. The guy was a member of the Gestapo, asisgned to the Army to serve with the GFP.

Should point out that the photo IS of this guy but is a loose one just laid on the page in the Wehrpass where the original photo was removed.

Nice Soldbuch to a Feldgendarmerie officer (very hard to find) who was promoted from the ranks. Note the suffix after each rank "d. Fg." (der Feldgendarmerie)

Even though you have posted your items - that was to other sub-forums - I, for one - would be very interested to see a few more, if you have time.

Best Mervyn

Happy to oblige, but as they've already been posted, I don't want to flood this new area with seperate threads on the various Third Reich period bits so Ive changed the title of this thread and will just add them here.

First, here is an interesting Soldbuch to a Feldgendarmerie guy who is an example of these who continued to served under British control after the end of the war. Note the date of his final promotion - June 1945 !!

Tsingtau and Tange ribbons definitely exist, but I'm not so sure about Adolf Lüderitz. This one wasn't comissioned until mid-1940 by which time they'd be using the simple "Kreigsmarine" ribbons.

I suppose some could have been made but never issued, but I've never seen or heard of one.

Here is another interesting piece. In the early post-war period, keeping order in occupied Germany was no easy task. Former Feldgendarmerie troops were employed under British control to help keep order amongst the huge number of German troops who were being demobilised. The armband has the title in both languages, British and German.

No, there isn't a side arm, at least I can't make one out on the original print.

I don't collect Police items <i>per se</i>, my interest is in <i>Military</i> Police, so what I have pertains mostly to the Feldgendarmerie, Marineküstenpolizei, Geheime Feldpolizei etc.

I'm working on a book on the various military police formations and have been fortunate in finding some really nice photos like the one in this thread, mostly from Ebay often rare stuff misidentified as Feldgendarmerie ( just because a Gorget is being worn).

A lot of the photos I have found, and insignia, cuffbands etc have already been posted.

Here is one piece I was particularly glad to acquire and which partly falls into the "police" category.

The civil police used a small number of cuffbands (Motorisierte Gendarmerie, Deutsche Wehrmacht etc) all of which were either hand embroidered or machine eembroidered on brown wool.

The Military Police of the Wehrmacht wore a cuffband "Feldgendarmerie" which was woven in rayon.

In the very earliest days of the Feldgendarmerie, members of the civil police who had been drafted in continued to wear their police uniforms but with army insignia added.

I believe this Feldgendarmerie NCO cuffband is from this early transitional period - being in Police style manufacture embroidered on brown wool, rather than simply being a variant of the army pattern band.

By the way, if you worry about Radium in Feldgendarmerie Gorgets you encounter there is an easy solution. Sell them to me. I love Gorgets <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/jumping.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="jumping.gif" />

Hi Mervyn

Yes the MKP Gorget was unique in being worn directly below the national emblem on the right breast rather than centred on the chest and worn from a chain.

There was provision for this Gorget to be worn from a chain when worn on the greatcoat however. It wasn't a complete chain though. Two small short lengths of chain were worn, one suspended from a hook either side of the greatcoat collar, and the pin on the back of the gorget simply passed through the bottom link of each small peice of chain.

It was also unique in being devoid of the eagle/swastika, probably because it was worn directly below the eagle on the uniform.

I really think the story of the radium being at danger level is just a myth.

Prior to transferring, these MKP guys wore the uniform of the Wasserschutzpolizei. This in itself was very similar to the naval uniform anyway ( dark blue double breasted reefer jacket) but was worn with WSP pattern shoulder straps. What confuses matters is that in the initial few months after the MKP was set up, those transferred continued to wear WSP uniform, then a mix of WSP and KM.

This guy wears KM uniform though (navy breast eagle and navy shoulder straps), so is probably a later photo.

Very, very hard to find photos of these guys wearing the gorget. I've only seen two or three photos (including this one) in 40 years.

Photo at Mervyn's request.

These guys were drafted in from the civilian Wasserschutzpolizei in 1940. From what I can gather, unlike their Army counterparts, they were not used in formal units of any size, but rather a handful were allocated to the office of each Harbour Master.

Once transferred however, they became members of the armed forces subject to military law and regulations and were no longer part of the police structure.

There is, on the other hand, substantial proof that it DID engage in the assembly of such awards, from leftover original stock, after the war.

Exactly. And that is the story that was circulating when large numbers of these (and also other KM badges such as Marine Artillery, Minesweeper etc) appeared in large numbers many years back. It begs the question, if S&L had sufficient supplies of leftover stocks of good quality wartime pin fittings in the immediate postwar years, then why use this type of crappy fitting shown on the S-Boot, (given that the manufacture of this type ended when the 2nd Model S-Boot was introduced in 1943, well before the end of the war and when reasonably good quality fittings were still being used on all badges.)

Compare the quality with other Zinc 1st pattern S-Boot badges, Mayer, Forster & Barth, Funcke & Bruninghaus etc, all with more conventional style decent quality hinges. S&L, one of the most prestigious manufacturers, is supposed to have been reduced to using these crude "hinges" as early as 1943 ?? Doesn't ring true for me. Some people accept them, but for me these will always be, to say the least, highly suspect - not so much in terms of the badge itself which is probably left over wartime stock, but the fittings.

No one has yet been able to produce a Nazi badge from S&L which can be demonstrated to have been made right after the war "from the ground up" and using all new parts. This is heresy in much of the collecting world, but I, for one, would very much like to see any proof to the contary.

Completely agree. Which is why I find it amusing that so many people doubt that S&L made the DK during the war. If they are all fake, then it means that S&L cut an entirely new set of tooling for a Nazi award, after the war. Something I find implausible.