Gordon Williamson

There are a few other KM badges apparently made by this same firm, with identical mid war type finish and distinctive fittings. There is some good evidence now to suggest that this particular series was made by Mayer.

Particularly happy to get this one as so far Mayer is not a firm that has been associated with making this particular badge.

No, I don't think so John. Ignore the hinge and just look at the pin itself. The bulge is definitely nearer to the top on the Schwerin example, and in the centre on the other.

Just to be clear though, I can happily accept Schwerin actually making the basic badge stamping. I would still contend that, these unmarked examples being a match for the S&L catalogue piece, that that is most probably what they are, badges retailed by S&L, whether or not it was actually Schwerin who stamped them out.

The same sort of situation exists with the Mayer / Zimmermann / Schickle U-Boat badges. All bear identical obverse die characteristics only the pin fittings ( and fretting out of the Swas) differ. It is perfectly possible that only ONE of these firms actually stamped out the badge and sold blanks to the others for finishing. Unmarked Mayer and Zimmermann U-Boat badges are confused often enough even with the visible difference in the Swas. The same situation could easily exist between Schwerin and S&L.

Hi John,

Certain lends credence to the theory of Schwerin making the actual planchettes.

Still doesn't rule out the unmarked examples being made by Schwerin and supplied to S&L.

Plus of course it doesn't answer the question of "where are the S&L U-Boat badges if they aren't the unmarked examples of this type".

It is inconceivable to me that there is yet another "Schwerin type" out there as retailed by Steinhauer of which none has ever surfaced.

Everyone seems to be fixated on Schwerin and the question of "where are the S&Ls" had become the "Elephant in the Room" that many just want to ignore.

The other interesting questions of course, for those who believe these are Schwerin, is - Where are the S&L badges ?

We have a period Steinhauer catalogue which shows three KM badges, - Minesweeper, U-Boat and Destroyer.

S&L Destroyer badges are well known as are the Minesweepers. Yet, no one has ever been able to produce a verified U-Boat badges. Why?

So, what is the answer ?

1. S&L illustrated a U-Boat badge in their catalogue but never actually had them - unlikely.

2. S&L manufactured a U-Boat badge , but different in appearance to the one in the catalogue - unlikely considering the high level of visual

accuracy for which S&L catalogue illustrations are known.

3. The unmarked Schwerin "type" badge which matches the catalogue illustration not only in appearance but in fittings (which do not match

other Schwerin pieces) IS actually an S&L.

I know which option makes sense to me

So, despite having all the requirements for a match to the one in the catalogue, if this type is not the one in the S&L catalogue, where are all the S&L U-Boat badges ? Abducted by aliens ?

One could argue about die characteristics etc but this would be meaningless, if - as suggested- the blanks were stamped by Schwerin and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. Then of course they would have an identical obverse to the true Schwerin badges as the hardware is the only thing that differentiates these from the normal Schwerin.

So the question again, if not this type - where did all the S&L badges disappear to ?

Nice one Martin, and again fits the bill perfectly for what an S&L would look like.

Its no secret that I don't like the Schwerin U-Boat badge. Horrible things. The only thing that would persuade me to buy one of this type, would be to get one with the "S&L type" pin. That, I would buy. A true Schwerin, I wouldn't want.

Now look at the pin shapes from the reverse side.

Its not just a case of the length of the pin, but its shape. The typical Schwerin pin has its widest part near the top. The other pin has its widest part more centrally positioned.

Now compare with the Steinhauer catalogue illustration. You can clearly see from the outline profile of the pin where visible that the pin on the S&L badge has its widest part in the centre - just like the badge in this thread - and not at the top like a Schwerin pin.

I'm quite prepared to believe that the badges themselves may have been struck by Schwerin, as blanks without fittings, and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. This kind of "sharing" is well known from other awards.

One thing is sure, the badge in the catalogue offered by S&L is a Schwerin "type" badge, and the appearance of the pin ( its curvature and the excessive length) would be produced by exactly the type of pin on the badge in this thread.

To me, there is more circumstantial evidence for this type being S&L, than Schwerin.

Quite sad really, that a firm like S&L would chose to produce such a pig-ugly U-Boat Badge as the hideous Schwerin type.

Either way, personally, I'd be much happier to have a rare S&L badge than a common Schwerin.

Here is a comparison shot with the badge in this thread shown alongside the Steinhauer catalogue illustration.

Though it is clearly 100% original wartime, I am far from convinced that this is a Schwerin badge.

Looks more like Steinhauer to me.

Of course it is possible that Schwerin struck the badge blanks and supplied them to Steinhauer who added their own fittings. The illustration in the Steinhauer catalogue shows a Schwerin "type" badge but with the tip of the pin extending down well below the edge of the badge, just like this, and something that would certainly be produced by mounting the hinge this way.

(John, we were both posting at the same time. I agree with you 100%)

I would personally much rather have one of these with a pin set up not often seen ( even if the Steinhauer theory is unproven) than a "normal" Schwerin badge, which by any standards is a pretty common piece.

One of her aft turrets was also removed and replaced with triple AA mounts as well as more single AA mounts along the edge of the deck.

In this configuration ( but with the name painted on her hull side removed) Yukikaze took part in Operation "Ten-Ichi-Go" along with the super-battleship Yamato. This was the operation in which Yamato was sunk.

Hard to see in this scale, but as well as the triple barrel AA on the plaform, a row if single AA mounts were postioned along the edge of the deck (where the figures are)

The IJN realised pretty quickly that the greatest danger came not from ship to ship engagements, but from air attack. Yukikaze only had a modest AA armament at first, so was heavily modified.

A new AA platform was added in front of the bridge

And twin turrets astern

Note the large bare area of deck ahead of the bridge.

The Destroyer Yukikaze was one of Japan's luckiest ships. She survived the war, coming through many major battles. Afgter the war she was given to the Nationalist Chinese navy and served until the 70s.

This is her in her original guise

With brass cladding added. Still needing a lot of work on filling / smoothing around the joints. Plenty work for the fine jeweller files. Four of these to be done of course but I'm only this far into the first.

The the same process for the secondary armament turrets. Repetitive and tedious at times so a bit of a break was needed.

Next to be done are the main armament turrets. Here is the basic wooden carcass.

Afraid I haven't spent much time on her recently. Too many other priorities getting in the way.

This is the last small sub-assembly.

One of the rangefinders with attached radar array.

Posting this image for Fernando. For sure, a nice original example in good condition.

Not really off-track Tim, just indicative of the same issue happening with other awards, other nations.

Good point from Prosper though about the rarity of the award docs for the silver clasp. I've had several Bronze clasp docs but only two for the Silver clasp.

I think the silver clasp is actually still quite rare. The point Horst Bredow was making was about its "status" in the eyes of the recipients rather than the number that have survived through to today. I'm sure that there are many other awards that are more highy regarded (or lusted over) by collectors than by the soldiers who were eligible.

Not related to KM stuff but in a similar manner, Panzer "Ace" Ernst Barkmann once showed me his "25" Panzer Assault Badge, and when I asked why he never wore it in any wartime photos, he said that the badge he really valued was his Infantry Assault Badge. It was his first combat badge, the one that proved he had "won his spurs" in battle and meant more to him than his Panzer Assault Badge.

Compare that to the "value" that a collector would put on each of these awards.

Too many collectors become focused on the monetary value of these awards and I suspect if they sat down with a combat vet and discussed which ones were most highly "rated" they might get a few surprises.

Great group, Gordon!! Can you tell me what MPA means on the EK2 doc?

Also, Rick, how do you know this? Very interesting...

M.P.A. = Marine Personal Amt (Naval Personnel Department)

I think Rick is referring to the abbreviation "geh." after the serial (geheime = Secret)

These are the only four boats which are listed by Georg H?gel as using the Edelweiss. The H?gel book however, excellent though it is, does not give 100% complete coverage. There are lots of examples in the U-Boot Archiv of crew members of various boats wearing tradition badges which are not included in H?gel's book.

So, there may well have been other boats which used the Edelweiss. Additionally, crews of Deastroyers which were sunk or scuttled at Narvik, and who found themselves on land fighting as Infantry alongside the Mountain Troops, are known to have worn the Edelweiss as a commemorative emblem. How long this was permitted isn't known, but it certainly happened.

There may also have been some of the smaller surface ships ( Minesweepers, VP Boats etc ) which could have worn the Edelweiss ( especially those which served from Norwegian ports) and I'm afraid there are no specific reference works available on the Traditional Badges worn by these units.

If the cap was found in a house clearance ( I know Thomas gets a lot of stuff this way) along with a U-Boat Badge then it certainly suggests the guy was on submarines rather than surface ships, but again, I would be reluctant to place 100% faith in the available crew lists.

I have had irrefutable documentation to men on certain boats who don't show up in the known crew lists.

It appears that he survived the war and went on to serve with the German Minesweeping Administration from 1945-1947 under British control. Here are his discharge papers.

Here he is, with his destroyer.

His EK doc

Nice set to a crewman on Erich Steinbrink.

Judging by the date of the Destroyer Doc, it would appear that his qualifying sortie for the badge was an operation in the Bristol Channel along with Friedrich Ihn , Hans Lody , Karl Galster, Falke , Greif , Jaguar , Kondor , Seeadler and Wolf in which the German force engaged a force of British cruisers and destroyers.